The consultation on the proposed regulated industries unit (RIU) which will shape the future consumer landscape, needs your input.
You have only until the end of September 2012 to submit your opinion/views.
"Stakeholders" [read: businesses] are being consulted, isn't it time that the people of the UK were listened to?
Submit your views and read the proposals over at Consumer Focus
This is your chance to voice your concerns about issues you have with;
* hidden charges/fees
* Mobile phone price increases
* Bank charges
* Misleading supermarket sale prices
* Being held to ransom via your credit rating
The list is endless, it's time for you to speak out!
Bidding and buying on ebay can be costly to your pocket, especially when, as is often the case, there is another "bidder" interested in the same item that you are after.
Now that you can shop and buy using a one off card payment, you don't need to use or have a paypal account to shop on ebay.
But there are ways to win and win on the cheap!
Here are my personal top tips to viewing and winning on ebay - getting value for money.
* NEVER use the "watch item" feature!
You see an item and click to "watch it"
This is then advertised across ebay under the "see what others are watching" section for the entire duration of the auction.
This is plastered all over your side bar and your "watched item" is promoted, not just through the ebay website but other ebay owned websites, increasing the number of views is not good, this will only lead to more bids, especially expensive if the item you are "watching" is quite hard to get hold of and collectable.
* When entering a search term, be vague!
There are many tools available to the more knowledgable ebay user whom buys and sells via the website, that help them see what search terms are popular and what are not.
The seller is aiming for the maximum exposure to attract the maximum bids, popular search terms can also work to increase the starting price, pushing up initial bids, which, as I will cover later in this post, do not help your pocket when buying.
For example, say you are looking for a collectable product. We will call it "Box A"
You enter "box A" and run a search.
Any sellers listing their "box A" check how popular that search term is.
You might return to ebay and run a search for "box A" a few times over a couple of weeks, this pushes up the number of results.
If "box A" becomes a popular search terms, anyone listing one might well start their auction off at Â£5.99 instead of 99p, this costs you more, both in the initial bid and the amount by which the bidding will increase, ie, a 99p start price would rise by 50p per bid, something with a higher starting price often rises by over a Â£1 per bid. Not very frugal!
Try searching for the manufacturer of "box A" - granted, you will have to work through the results, many of which won't interest you, but from there you can view the ones you find for "box A" without increasing search results and popularity.
* Don't forget spelling mistakes!
You would be amazed at the amount of times I have searched for something and I have spelt it wrong when I typed it in, only to find one or two listings for what I was looking for where the seller has spelt it wrong.
Ignore the "did you mean..." option on the results page.
As I write this post, there is an xbox 360 game listed under "lwgo" (the W is next to the E on the keyboard) instead of "lego" with no bids on it in the 24 hours it's been listed.
Keyboard mistakes are easy to make for sellers, which can be very frugal for buyers if they are spotted.
* Change your own "last viewed" list!
Your sidebar and cookies display what you have last viewed, by clearing cookies or simply viewing three other items completely different from the item that interests you, you can remove these results.
Think about it, if it has information that shows you the last three things you viewed, everytime you log into ebay, it can show all the other users what you viewed also, increasing clicks on the item you want, possibly generating more interest in it.
If you have three unrelated items listed there, no damage is done and viewing results for the item you want will be reduced.
You've found your item, what now?
Now you have two options;
- Using your vague search term, find it in the results and keep your eye on it (*NOTE this does not mean clicking on it!)
- Place a minimum bid on it then keep an eye on it via "my ebay" (*NOTE this does not mean clicking on it!) Do not bid any higher on the item!
I have noticed that if I bid the opening bid on an item then just keep an eye on it, without clicking on the listing, via "my ebay" - in essence, leaving it alone - more often than not, no other bids come in for it.
My other tactic is keeping an eye on it - again not clicking on the listing - via my vague search term results.
Either way, I then move to my "win it" next step.
These two methods also help cut down on the possibility of becoming a victim of "shill bidding"
"Shill bidding" is where the seller lists an item and works with another bidder or has another account set up and bids on their own item to increase the end sale price (Costing you more money in the process)
You can normally spot shill bidding taking place, but although you can complain to ebay and they will review it, it is very hard to prove, as the friend or other account normally has a different IP address logged so the two accounts cannot be linked by those investigating.
Telltale signs of "Shill bidding" include;
* An account bidding on the item with no previous feedback left or given
* An account making several bids but only on this particular item or only bidding on some items with this particular seller
* An account making many bids but only increasing the bid each time by small amounts, then once they have gone past your "maximum bid" they retract their last bid, so their bid falls just under yours, you may win the auction, but you pay the maximum amount for it!
[This has happened to me once before - 12 bids of small amounts placed on the item I had put a maximum bid on, then retracted the winning bid so the rival bidder went just under the maximum amount I bid. Despite a complaint, ebay found no evidence of shill bidding and expected me to pay for it, warning of damage to my feedback rating if I failed to pay for the item and suspension of my ebay account. Two weeks later the seller magically closed their account and vanished, with no negative feedback or account suspension for me]
* The "Win it" final step!
If you have placed a minimum bid on the item, then watched it via "my ebay" I'm hoping you have not bid any higher on the item.
If you haven't placed a bid on it, but kept an eye on it via your vague search result term, then in the last few minutes, now is the time to return to it and click on the item page.
Many times I have been gazumped by a bigger bid in the last 10 seconds of an auction.
There are websites you can join, where for a fee, you can list an ebay item and place your maximum bid, the website will then wait until the last 10 seconds of the auction, then automatically place bid increments until it either reaches the maximum or wins the auction by becoming the highest bid then stopping.
This leaves you no time at all to increase your bid and the item you've been keeping an eye on for the past 7 days has gone to someone else.
It is extremely annoying when you are beaten by 50p to an item, especially when you have placed the opening bid of Â£1 and no one else has bid on the item.
You can vastly improve your chances manually.
In the last few minutes of the auction there is a countdown clock shown on the item page.
With just 20 seconds to go, I type in my maximum bid.
The "confirm your bid" box appears, which I move so I can see the countdown clock, then I hovver my mouse icon over the confirm box and wait until 3-5 seconds before the end of the auction, then I click confirm.
Once entered, it is difficult for anyone using an auto increment website automated bidding process, to have their bids increment fast enough to outbid me.
Remember that the automated website is trying to outbid my original opening bid or the latest highest bid. In the few seconds it takes to beat that bid, I have submitted a new bid, unless the website is capable of checking for new bids in a split second, then it doesn't have time to react and I win the auction.
Alternately, if the automated website is placing only the minimum bid, as I've only watched it from my vague search term results and placed no bid and neither has anyone else, then before it can check for other bids, the auction is over and I've won it!
If no automated website is involved and no one else bids, regardless of my maximum bid, I get it for the opening bid amount... it doesn't happen very often but it does happen.
Sounds silly, but the amount of times I've been beaten by these websites after a week of bidding, watching items, etc, is too numerous to count.
Many times, by placing the opening bid then leaving the item alone, so to speak, nobody else comes in with another bid and I win the auction at the minimum price.
The trick is to avoid showing ebay what you are interested in.
Would you go to a real life auction house and declare to everyone what it is you will be bidding on?
The same applies to ebay, if you do not feed ebay information about what interests you, then you can save a packet and be very frugal indeed!
Ebay's target is to obtain as much information about what you are interested in and using target advertising, promote as many clicks/views of that item as possible, to obtain as much commission as possible for their business.
The easier you make their job, the more it will cost you, the buyer, from your pocket!
Thanks to Stelsters (Over at chatgames.com shameless plug of a totally FREE trivia/quiz website) for another money saving ebay tip.
When searching, try searching for national variants!
"luster/lustre, theater/theatre, and of course, the infamous U." - Thanks Stelsters hun.
As summer comes to a close, rip off Britain is alive and well, it's been one of the hardest that I can remember.
HOLIDAYS (Or lack of):
We are all so tired, now six years since we could afford a holiday, a week away that doesn't involve paying out hundreds of pounds for a hotel bedroom that has added a dado rail and has declared itself top rate, bumping up their prices in the process.
You can go to [insert european destination here] "from" Â£XX per person... Only it never is that price is it!
One late "deal" I checked out, at lastminute dot com, the headline price didn't include a case (who goes on holiday in just the clothes they are wearing?) and declared sprog2 [who is 2 years old] as a junior and almost full price for the flights, hotel, etc.
For mum & dad and a 2 year old sprog it was the best part of Â£1500 for a week self catering.
We could holiday in the UK?
Have you seen the prices for a bedroom in the UK, that was Â£200 for a week in early July, but now it's over Â£450 for the same room a week into the school holidays, this is without costing for petrol, meals, "Things to do" and relevant parking.
It's a joke.
I watched a few episodes of those B&Bs on channel 4 - where fellow B&B owners shove an asparagus stalk on a plate and dream about the public paying Â£100 for a room for the night as being "good value" - nonsense the lot of them.
We could go for a day out?
Paying top dollar for parking, petrol racing up in value, blatent profiteering by the petrol sellers, as I've caught out our nearest forecourt, putting up the price 3 times on the same delivery, then smiling when you chastise them for it... as if it's some kind of light hearted banter!
Resort tickets stretching the finances - tickets for mum & dad, granny and a sprog will set you back the best part of Â£100 for a few hours of being trapped inside blackpool pleasure beach, eating and drinking is out of the question as the prices are way above what's being charged outside their theme park... don't worry though, the same old rides painted in the style of their sponsors, nikelodeon, will ensure a wonderful day out... not.
Everywhere we go the parking is more than an hours wage, we are even charged for parking so we can walk around a reservoir!
There's only so many times you can go for a walk in the hills locally and see the wonderful views, many don't even have that option, what are they supposed to do?
I swear if I hear "It's the government taxing it" being used as an excuse by an attendant for putting up pump prices one more time, I'll shove the pump handle where the sun don't shine!
I shouted down a shell forecourt attendant the other week, as I'd driven past not 30 minutes earlier and seen a price of Â£1.32 per litre. It was now mid afternoon and now was charged at Â£1.35 per litre, at the time more expensive than a motorway forecourt in a remote area in the lake district... the attendant thought it was funny as "it went up 15 minutes ago!"
I save in one area, I lose in two others, one step forward then three steps back.
We saved Â£200 on insurance for the year, then lost Â£240 a month in income.
We are budgeting just to break even.
Cannot afford to pay of a modest overdraft, then hit with Â£1 per day charges instead of % interest. Price per month increased from around Â£7 per month to Â£20, that's over Â£150 per year extra to find unless we can skint ourselves and pay it off.
All this while the weekly shop increases in cost.
There's only so much one can recycle in the garden and around the house to prepare for winter and do over the summer.
Summertime used to be a wonderful carefree time of year, some sunshine and a break for us all to have time to recharge the batteries.
We can tolerate the poor weather, that is, until the planned "day out next month" goes tits up when yet another bill lands on the doorstep and swallows up the money we'd have spent stretching to some fish and chips or travelling, or both!
We are exhausted here, I don't mind telling, something has got to give, it's not nice seeing the better half spend her entire two weeks off work, her main summer holiday, running around the place trying to chase her tail, making the best of things.
We tried a day out at the trafford centre, getting stung Â£10 for 5 "luxury ice creams" that weren't upto the standard or size of the poundshop's own brand ice cream.
We had to pay Â£3.50 an hour so the little 'un could be pushed around in a plastic car buggy for a bit of fun, I had to surrender all my details (information harvesting) and lay down a Â£20 deposit incase I went home with the thing... god knows how most people can afford to shop there?
The mother tells me it's all spent on credit cards then people take 2 months work paying it all off... so what happens to their monthly bills then?
I think she might be right.
Is it so wrong to want to take the two year old out once in a while and be able to afford to not skip a monthly payment so we can pay for travelling and eat when we get there?
Businesses overcharging for everything, whilst customer service goes down the pan. Promised call backs that never come.
Saving money with the left hand and a week later watching the family finances pot get lighter as some business raises their charges.
"Admin fees" that are just a way of making yet more profit, does it really cost Â£25 to change an address or some other minor detail?Â
Where will it all end? There's only so much people can take, something has GOT to give and soon...
Which? conversation's "Fixed means fixed" campaign is, we are told, supported by over 20,000 people.
It comes about on the back of their most popular "conversation" regarding complaints about Three mobile raising prices by less than the retail price index (RPI) mid contract.
AsÂ I postedÂ earlier, Which? conversation are hiding posts/comments, that do not support their campaign.
This post can be seen only by my account, when visiting the Which? conversation website as a visitor (ie, not logged in) the post is hidden from view.
When logged into an account other than mine, the post is hidden from view.
This post has not been deleted, no explanation given from Which?
Which? conversation think it is acceptable to hide posts from view that do not agree with their view.
After a week long wait and postings to twitter highlighting this, the comment below has finally been published.
Of course, it was just an oversight as the comment was in a "moderation queue" and was not picked up on.
It is now not the latest comment, instead it can be seenÂ before several other comments made over the past week.
Let's see how long it will take to get some answers to the points raised....
Here's the comment.
"Which? has some serious questions to answer about this campaign, their official complaint to OFCOM and their conduct on this issue before they get my support on this.
â€œFixed means fixedâ€ campaign alongside the official complaint to OFCOM has INCREASED the detriment of consumers, both in time and money.
Â OFCOMâ€™s review was due to be completed in late July 2012.
Â Which? after negotiations with OFCOM and Three, submitted a formal complaint instead of â€œa super complaintâ€
Â As a result of the actions of Which? there will now be no review findings or action until January 2013 â€“ conveniently fitting in nicely with OFCOMâ€™s 2013 general aims.
Had Which? not made an official complaint to OFCOM, then there would have been a response from OFCOM in July 2012
Â Had Which? used its powers and issued a â€œsuper complaintâ€ then OFCOM would have had to respond to it within 90 days. An OFCOM response would have come by late October 2012, at the latest.
Â Now that Which? have lodged an official complaint, as a direct result of, there will now be no response/resolution until at the earliest, January 2013.
Â OFCOM have extended their review by a further 6 months.
Â (source: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/competition-bulletins/open-cases/all-open-cases/cw_01082/)
In light of Which? being in discussions with both Three and OFCOM prior to their complaint it is difficult to see any other reason why Which? have acted in this way, other than to assist Three and OFCOM to manage this issue. This is not the way I would expect an â€œindependantâ€ consumer watchdog to operate!
There was no mention of OFCOMâ€™s own review (started in January 2012) by any Which? staff on the posts concerning price rises until the same day Which? submitted the formal complaint, in a this is money article dated July 16th, that Which? responded to.
Â This includes the T-Mobile price rises thread in March 2012 and both Three price rises threads (from May 2012) and in their responses to consumerâ€™s posts.
Â The first time Which? have mentioned OFCOMâ€™s review on their own conversation boards, was the 18th July in response to being asked why they hadnâ€™t mentioned it at all.
Â This wasnâ€™t on the Three price rises posts, it was on this thread â€œfixed means fixedâ€
21st and 22nd June 2012, Which? staff were still posting the official OFCOM line that it was down to individual cases on Three conversations.
Â 22nd June, poster â€œSimonâ€ posted his official reply from OFCOM which highlighted the January 2012 review.
Â Despite this change of response from OFCOM it wasnâ€™t until 18th July that Which? staff mentioned the review at all, almost a month later and after the formal complaint was submitted.
This all makes a mockery of Which?â€™s reply to why a super complaint wasnâ€™t submitted,
Â â€œâ€¦it can take a long time for us to put a super complaint together given the duty on regulators to respond. In the case of Fixed Means Fixed, there was clearly a huge call for us to act quickly, which is why we have promptly submitted a formal complaint on this occasionâ€
When did Threeâ€™s RPI price rises come into effect?
Â 16th July, the exact same day as the notification period of price rises ran out for Three customers, the same day as Which? submitted their official complaint to OFCOM!
Threeâ€™s RPI price rises do not affect customers that signed their contracts AFTER 8th March 2012
Â Why would Which? omit this information from their two â€œThree price risesâ€ conversation posts and not mention it in their â€œfixed means fixedâ€ campaign?
Â Why have Which? staff not posted this in their responses to worried consumers posting on their boards, instead advising people to â€œkeep paying monthly under protestâ€?
Â (Source: http://www.which.co.uk/documents/pdf/the-marketing-of-mobile-phone-fixed-term-offers-which-complaint-290997.pdf â€“ see section 17)
Why have Which? omitted to include a link to the details of their formal complaint to OFCOM from their â€œFixed means fixedâ€ campaign for people to see?
Â You can read the full official complaint here â€“ http://www.which.co.uk/documents/pdf/the-marketing-of-mobile-phone-fixed-term-offers-which-complaint-290997.pdf
Â With over 19,000 sign ups to the campaign as I post, I am surprised nobody has asked where they can find the details of the complaintâ€¦ or perhaps people are too trusting of a consumer watchdog?
The official complaint states â€œWhich? and Three have entered into a dialogue on this issue. These documents may be disclosed to Ofcom in confidenceâ€
Â Why are documents listing dialogue between Three and Which? to remain confidential?
Â If consumers are not being managed by Which? Three and OFCOM, why are these not made available for us to see?
Â Open and transparent, independant, etc, are words bandied about, but when it might benefit the public they are kept confidential?
Â I canâ€™t see how any dialogue between Three and Which? could be â€œcommercially sensitiveâ€ â€“ itâ€™s a simple case of Three havenâ€™t pointed out the RPI clause at the point of sale, preventing customers from making an informed buying decision, so they are within their rights to terminate their contracts without penalty.
Which? are advocating that it is acceptable for customers to pay early termination fees where a mobile phone company has done nothing wrong, in their offical complaint to OFCOM
Â In response to my questioning of this on which? conversation boards, Which? replied,
â€œIf the company has stuck to the terms then yes, an early termination fee is acceptable.
Â Why? Well, most contracts these days come with a free phone, so to allow people to cancel with no penalty one month in would have us all walking around with free phones or (more likely) no opportunity for a company to offer this sort of contract to those who want it.
Â Also, most early termination charges will relate to revenues foregone from a mutually agreed contract, rather than an actual â€˜penalty.â€™â€
* Handsets â€“ If the contract is sold with â€œa free handsetâ€ or the handset price is presented as â€œno chargeâ€ then there can be no instance of that handset ever becoming chargeable to the customer in any case where early termination fees are sought.
Â â€œâ€¦so to allow people to cancel with no penalty one month in would have us all walking around with free phones or (more likely) no opportunity for a company to offer this sort of contract to those who want it.â€ â€“ completely irrelevant business spin in the case of early termination fees.
Â If a handset is given away â€œfreeâ€ with a contract, then it cannot be charged for at a later date.
Â To charge in any way for the â€œfreeâ€ handset would be a penalty charge as it does not recover â€œactual lossâ€ and as such is unenforceable under common law in England and Wales.
Â Over 100 years of legal precedent exists to back up my point.
Also, most early termination charges will relate to revenues foregone from a mutually agreed contract, rather than an actual â€˜penalty.â€™
Â * Furture revenues of the contract â€“ The case of Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd. v New Garage & Motor Co. Ltd.  A.C. 79 at 86., it was noted by the judge, that a clause is penal if it provides for â€œa payment of money stipulated as in terrorem of the offending partyâ€, (i.e. a payment of a sum of money intended to frighten or intimidate the offending party).
By definition, a â€œdeterrentâ€ is a way of intimidating someone from performing an action.
Â Early termination fees in a mobile phone contract act as a â€œdeterrentâ€ to the other party, to prevent them cancelling mid term to obtain a better deal elsewhere or to stop paying their contract should their financial circumstances worsen, for example.
Â This view is further supported under OFCOMâ€™s own General condition 9, which states, â€œcontract termination conditions and procedures for termination must not act as a disincentive to end-users from switching their providersâ€
Â If Which? can think of a bigger â€œdisincentiveâ€ to an end user from switching their service provider, than imposing early termination fees which often run to more than Â£100, then Iâ€™m sure we would all like to hear it!
There are too many coincidences and unanswered questions for me to support this campaign and the official complaint with OFCOM."
It's ironic, that Which? conversation's campaign "Fixed means fixed" is about businesses misleading customers, how is hiding legitimate questions from supporters and website visitors (without providing any answers) not misleading?
How many more posts/comments with questionsÂ are you hidingÂ Which?
The editorial team over at Which? conversation think that it is appropriate and proper, to mislead individual posters and readers on their "conversations" web boards.
Which? are happy to have a post appear on their web boards when it is sent from and then viewed by a logged in user, while at the same time, hide it from the view of all users whom are not signed up members and also those that are logged in members, as well as those subscribing to email updates of the particular thread (in other words, everyone elses view).
It must be stuck in their spam filter?
A few weeks ago, a post of mine on a Which? conversation was said to be stuck in their spam filter. The post was sent and immediately disappeared from my view and everyone elses. After repeating the post, again it simply did not show to anyone, my own account included.
On this occasion, my post can be seen, voted upon, etc, by myself. When I visit the "conversation" not logged into the website, (ie, as unregistered user) my post is not shown.
When friends have logged in with their accounts, again, my post is not shown.
The only time I can see the post is when I am logged in under my account.
The technique being used by Which? editorial staff, misleads me to believe that my post is part of the "conversation" and open to voting, questioning, etc.
Of course this is false - as no other visitor to the website can see it, they don't evenÂ know it exists!
Perhaps your post had been "reported" to the website moderators and held in a queue, then not picked up on?
A couple of days later I was "warned" by the editorial team on a different "conversation" that my posts may have to be deleted if they were "harassing" other people responding to the topic.
I replied asking about how it could be deemed "harassment" when in fact I was asking questions requested by Which?'s own staff?
Within seconds of posting my reply it was marked as "disagreed with" [perhaps a post cannot be removed once it's been voted upon? this argument is for another time]
I logged out, cleared cookies, visited the conversation again, it was displayed no problem.
This shows that my posts were not automatically being held back, as a result of my other post being "reported" to the Which? moderators.
However, later that evening I was reading online as I do, when I came across an article which was relevant to the same "conversation" - I posted a link and a comment. I logged out, cleared cookies and revisited the "conversation" - my post, that was displayed fine when I was logged in and viewing it, was not there.
Friends logged in and checked, they too could not see the post.
This proves that my Which? account had restrictions placed upon it by their editorial staff and my post hidden from view to everyone. I was not told of this, I was given no explanation, etc.
The following morning, the post suddenly appeared on the "conversation" viewable by everyone.
It has been more than 2 days now since my comment on the "conversation" in question, nobody else has posted a comment since my comment went missing from anyone's view. I've had no messages about it, no answers to the questions I asked in it, nothing, not a peep from Which?
The post/comment itself was about how I could not support the Which? campaign "fixed means fixed" that is being promoted all over the media and questioned Which?'s actions on the issue in only submitting a formal complaint, timings, failing to post relevant details to worried people posting on the Three "conversations," how their official complaint had delayed the process with OFCOM, why information on discussions between Three and Which? were being kept confidential, etc. (I shall post my comment - that Which? do not want anyone to see - on here shortly)
Further proof comes when I "reported" a comment to test the procedure. The comment remained displayed to everyone, when I was logged in and when I wasn't logged in. My friends could also see the comment I reported when they logged in.
This shows that "reported" comments are not automatically removed from the Which? conversation boards, they have to be manually removed by the editorial staff, which also proves that they are not automatically held in any queing system, where it could be said that restoring the comment to being visible to all "was not picked up on"
It's normal to delete forum posts that do not meet the website's guidelines
When logged in, my post is still there, can still be seen on the "conversation" as normal along with other people's comments.
The post has not been deleted, Which? are happy for me to be given the impression that my post is there for all to see, when only I can see it when logged in. This is misleading.
Which? have not contacted me to say it breaches any guidelines.
It's just a website...
Normally I would agree, but this is the Consumers Association trading as Which? Only four consumer bodies have the power to issue "Super complaints" in England, Which? is one of these and as such must meet certain criteria set down by government/legislation.
* Which? regularly lobby MPs on behalf of all consumers - regardless of whether their viewpoint agrees with Which?
* Which? advise MPs of all parties on many areas of business on behalf of consumers.
* Which? must remain independent, my post questioned this and provided a breakdown of what has happened during the course of the Which? conversations with Three on their price rises issue, the advice Which? have given to people and asked questions of Which? - to which they have responded by misleading myself giving the impression I was involved in their "conversation" when in fact I am excluded from it.
To sum up...
Which? conversation editorial staff should be answering questions posted to their website, by acting in the way they have chosen, suggests that my reasons for not supporting their "fixed means fixed" campaign may be correct.
IF my opposition is accurate, then this raises serious questions about the integrity of Which?
I was of the impression that being the consumers association, Which? were open to views from all sides on any given question that THEY ask and promote, by hiding my post to all but my logged in account, they have shown that Which? "conversations" and "campaigns" cannot be trusted to be accurate.
How many more Which? members have posted comments that have been hidden from view in this way?