XML FeedsLittle Treasures Children's Trust - clothing collection scam
By Value hunter on Jul 28, 2010 | In News, In real life, Bad business
IMPORTANT UPDATE:
As of June 2011, it has now been confirmed that Little treasures children's trust have secured a license with our local council for carrying out doorstep collections.
Frugal ways welcomes this, as it was the whole purpose of the original post.
There are of course, other companies/charities making collections on our doorsteps, that are not legitimate and have no license to do so.
It is essential that our local councils, even in times of cutbacks, operate to protect the people who elect them. The licensing issue is a hotbed for all concerned, are the profits made per tonne excessive? Is the charity genuine?
These are questions that are asked prior to council's giving licenses out. It is therefore the local council's responsibility to answer to us and make sure that the proper checks are in place, to verify those who post bags and ask for our donations are who they say they are.
I will continue to believe that those businesses collecting on behalf of charities should not take any profit whatsoever from the money made from the collection.
A huge thankyou to all the site visitors who took the time to post regarding this issue. I hope at the very least we were able to make people aware of what was going on at the time.
Little treasures children's trust (charity no: 1119024) are having a clothing collection to raise funds, by a company called East London Textiles Ltd (ELT).
BE WARNED - IT IS EITHER AN UNLICENSED SCAM OR INVOLVES THE THEFT OF CHARITY BAGS!
ELT's representative posted a collection bag through my door yesterday, and everyone elses letterbox on our street, completely ignoring the "No cold callers/leaflets/flyers" notices in all our windows.
I immediately ran out and threw the bag back at her, into the street, questioning wether or not she could read!
I just got a dirty look for my trouble, after I went back inside, the representative picked up the bag and threw it into my garden and walked off.
I phoned the licensing officer at my local council, to see if they have a license to do household collections - (you can search your own council licenses at the lalpac website here) - both ELT and the little treasures childrens trust, do not have a license for household collections in my area.
I spent this morning double checking that they didn't have a "National license" with the Department of Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) - Once again, they are not licensed nationally.
All licenses are given out by local councils I was informed.
I was advised to report this to the Charities Commission who told me unless they get a large volume of complaints about them then they do not normally investigate!
However, if I was to visit their website and put the complaint in writing, it would be filed along with other complaints about their practice.
I then rang little treasures children's trust up, directly and spoke to a lady in their offices.
She told me she was disturbed by ELT collecting in their name in areas of England where they did not have a license - which is most of the country - and would be contacting them urgently to sort the matter out. The lady said she would ring me back with information about what had gone on and what would be done about it - this was about 6 hours ago and still no callback!
I grabbed some dinner, then phoned my local council's licensing officer to let him know what was going on, as he requested.
It cannot have been more than an hour from when I spoke to the lady at the little treasures childrens trust.
The licensing officer informed me that out of the blue, someone from East london textiles ltd had contacted his office, he was about to ring him to find out what was going on.
The licensing officer rang me back 30 minutes later, telling me, "a bloke calling himself Ivan admitted that ELT didn't have a license for our area."
He continued, "He told me that east london textiles ltd have had thousands of their collection bags stolen and they were being posted through people's letterboxes all over the country, but he did not know who had stolen them!" - conveniently, this "theft" hasn't been reported to the police either!
"There will be no collections made in our area tomorrow, as stated on the bags posted through letterboxes" - which was a token statement at best, according to our licensing officer.
As three people have informed me today, often they find that the people making vast amounts of profit from these clothing collections are also involved in setting up charities they claim to represent. It will be a case of trying to spot them collecting tomorrow, and reporting it to the licensing officer, so that the local council can bring a case against ELT for household collecting without a license (as they have now admitted).
I rang the little treasures childrens charity back, armed with this information, to find that the lady I spoke with this morning (who didn't call me back), had been "called away to an emergency meeting" but I could leave a message if I wanted to.
The lady phoned back - "I spoke with the director of the company and passed your details on, he will speak with the delivery team."
When I replied that a man called Ivan, from ELT had contacted our licensing officer, stating that no collection would take place and that the bags will have been stolen, I was told "There is a turf war going on in the north of England, we had 3000 of our bags turn up in someone's house not connected with anything!"
I have reported the case to trading standards officers in my county, if they get their act together, in our area tomorrow they will catch ELT in the act of household collecting without a license, or at the very least, catch whoever stole their bags.
What are the odds of that?
UPDATE:
It would appear that trading standards cannot be bothered to catch illegal, unlicensed scams in our area.
Gave them all the information via consumer direct yesterday, they haven't even bothered to phone back! (Remind me again why we pay so much in tax to fund them? What exactly is their job?)
I spoke also, with a community officer regarding what these people were doing - it was a bit vague about posting through letterboxes and household collections, despite pointing out that if I personally trade house to house without a license, I would be in front of a judge, yet these people are allowed to get away with it.
I was told it was "a civil matter" and as such down to the local council to bring a civil case against them.
After further reading up on it (I'm sad like that) it appears it is indeed a criminal offence to do house to house collections, in a licensing area, without a license. This was confirmed this morning by the licensing officer himself, in person.
At 11.40am today, a van pulled down our street, with "Little treasures children's trust" plastered on the side of it!
I phoned the van reg in to the licensing officer (he told me he would be out on the road today to try and catch them at it - which he was) then I rang the police and told them that the licensing officer was out looking for this van as they were committing an offence.
The officer told me they were out on patrol and the local bobbies would stop it if they came across it.
Then a knock at the door, it was the licensing officer himself, out trying to catch them at it, confirmed details and reg of van, off he went.
Then a phone call from the police, to let me know they stopped the van and warned the driver about posting sacks through letterboxes (why?) but that posting things was a civil matter to be taken up with the council (if it's not licensed then it's a criminal matter!) they then let the van go.
I repeated to the officer on the phone, that the council's licensing officer was trying to catch them and that he confirmed that it is a criminal offence to have a household collection without a license. The officer informed me of where they had stopped the van then ended the call so she could notify officers to stop the van again and call the licensing officer (Why don't these people work together?)
If there is anymore information I will post it.. just goes to show how easy it is for people to be misled and deceived for money!
What was it that little treasures childrens charity told me yesterday... ah yes there was a turf war going on and their bags have been stolen by other doorstep collectors!
Maybe I'll ring them and ask, exactly why one of their own vans is doing collections around my area today then.
UPDATE - As of September 2010, It has been brought to my attention, the little treasures children's trust charity are seeking to have this website removed (at least whilst their claims are investigated) by employing a solicitor to recover my personal information for the purposes of a legal action that this post is "defamatory" towards them.
Little treasures children's trust have not contacted me via this website, rang my phone number that I gave to them when reporting what their collection agent or van collection did, nor have they contacted me by mail at my home address which they have had from the outset as they said they would give this to east london textiles directors, so they could "stop this kind of thing happening again."
I can only guess, but it appears from their solicitor's letter, they would rather have the website and the information on it, removed from public view altogether, or at the very least, cause enough panic for a domain registrar to make this website "unusable."
You can view the full legal post here
UPDATE2:
It would appear that more areas are being targeted in this scam. Not my view, it is the view of Warrington trading standards:
http://www.tswarrington.co.uk/pdf/ican/188littletreasureschildrenstrust.pdf
Related posts:
Little treasures children's trust threaten Frugal ways with court action
Charity commission respond to our little treasures children's trust complaint
96 comments
Man, you've got such a cranky, cantankerous, sarcastic, grumpy way of looking at things. I reckon it's great, I get a giggle every time.
01/08/10 @ 11:24
Abe bud,We as taxpayers, pay an every growing tax bill locally, yet our letter boxes are flooded with around 10 deliveries per week, of leaflets, "charity" bags and the worst... kleeneze easy catalogues.
We have all got big signs up (that we paid for from our county council taxes) saying no cold callers, leaflets, etc. Of which all are ignored.
Here we have a charity unlicensed to collect things, the company collecting for them won't apply for a license because the local council will refuse them, as they make a substantial amount of money, and only give a small percentage to the charity, but will not reveal how much to the licensing office.
in this case, they are giving nothing to the charity at all, and moved on to the next town, after collecting in our area anyways, after telling households, licensing officer, etc, that they would not.
My MP says contact the local press and make people aware... my reply was, what is the point?
Why need to make people aware, when there is a law in place that will stop this instantly, but the police, the licensing office and the council (who's job it is) won't uphold the law and stop it?
Cantankerous? definately hehe
01/08/10 @ 21:48
Comment from: sarah [Visitor]
HiI have contributed clothes and shoes etc to ELT via Little Treasures on more than one occasion and have always found them to be polite and courteous. I do alot of work with different charities and find that door to door collections to be a great way to make a small contribution.
I think some people have far too much time on their hands to complain, maybe you could put that energy into helping out your local charities.
02/08/10 @ 15:27
Hi sarah,East london textiles (ELT) are not a charity, they are a business, doing very nicely from these collections.
Too much time on my hands? quite the opposite, I do however have some scruples.
If I give clothing to the oxfam shop and they want to sell it on, then good luck to them, it is theirs to do with as they want.
If I give clothing to little treasures, via ELT, very little of what is sold on actually raises funds for the charity. Instead it goes to making healthy profits for ELT, a business!
In this case, I'd bet good money that not a penny of the money raised from collecting illegally in my area went to the charity.
I would ask you to consider the following:
- 16 houses including my home with "no cold callers,bags,leaflets please" signs up, every single house got a bag posted through
- the charity tell me its ELT doing the collections and say theyll have words with them. The next day when one of their vans does a collection, they admit that it is their responsibility and say they will have a meeting about it (they lied on my first call)
- little treasures told me that they have had thousands of their bags stolen yet not reported any theft of bags to the police, anywhere in the UK
- little treasures told me there was "a turf war going on in the north west" clearly a lie, as the next day they admitted it was their vans doing the collecting illegally
- neither ELT or little treasures childrens trust have applied for or obtained a license to do house to house collections in my council's area, making what they are doing illegal!
- the person delivering their bags, did not close my gate (sprog could have got out onto road), ignored clear signage showing my wishes not to receive their bag, threw the bag into my garden after I had gone back into the house and when stopped and given the bag back, I was given a dirty look and ignored.
- ELT were contacted by our licensing officer, saying that they would not be collecting as they admitted they did not have a license, the van put little treasures childrens trust stickers on it, and collected the next day.
- little treasures and ELT are not licensed to house to house collect in our neighbouring town either, yet on Thursday (the day of collection here) after the charity had supposedly had words with ELT about it, they posted thousands of bags out in that town, saying they would collect on the saturday.
Ask yourself Sarah, why are both ELT and the charity telling would be donators and licensing officers lies?
Why, when questioned by council officials will ELT not reveal how much money they are making from collecting using a charity name?
Google ELT, have a look at the number of places where they have been refused a license then gone ahead and collected from houses in that area.
Try this link:
http://www.east-northamptonshire.gov.uk/downloads/Item_7b_Licensing_Panel_Mins.pdf
Look at section 8 in the minutes of the meeting.
You posted that you work for charities, I am amazed you would condone the actions of both ELT and little treasures childrens trust in this case.
02/08/10 @ 19:11
Comment from: alison [Visitor]
I totally agree with the comment from value hunter. I was out in my garage yesterday, when I saw a man leaving my garden, having just posted a "little treasures" leaflet in my letterbox. I thought the bloke looked a bit shifty at the time and having looked up this website and other info it just confirms it for me.
02/09/10 @ 20:48
Comment from: Helen [Visitor]
I too have had problems with 'Little Treasures' collectors today...IF that's who they were! Except I never put their bag out today, as I didnt think they were kosha...Instead it looks like they have virtually emptied an almost full large skip, which was on my driveway, while I was out for a few minutes! I saw them this morning and they collected a bag from next door. They were in a vehicle hire van and I took the reg number,cuz they were acting suspiciously. Not only am I concerned that this is in fact THEFT off my property (and I have paid the skiphire an awful lot of money to dispose of my rubbish correctly, which was supposed to be collected tomorrow!), but also for ID fraud and possible flytipping of my general household rubbish! I have reported it to the police, Trading Standards and the Vehicle Hire people concerned....
03/09/10 @ 18:06
Comment from: Kelly Coggins [Visitor]
Ive have had a sort through of clothes no longer needed and thought of charity. Today a van pulled up in my street so I went out to ask for a bag to find that they didnt speak english and couldnt answer when I asked what the charity was,thinking it wass a bit stranged,did a search and found this site,and no way am I putting any of it out for them to collect. Going to be very carefull from now on.
14/09/10 @ 09:53
Thank you for your feedback.With any charity bags, etc, dropped through your door to collect unwanted clothes, shoes, bags, etc.
There is a law in place that not only stops these collections, but ends the endless stream of bags being posted through your door - providing the local council licensing officer applies the law!
Have a quick read through the "House to house collections Act"
(http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1939/cukpga_19390044_en_1)
Failing this, ring up your local council and speak to their licensing officer. They will be able to tell you instantly if the collection is legal or not.
If they have no license then have the licensing officer investigate.
Only action of this kind will force local councils to actually uphold the law thats in place to stop this.
It sounds petty, but not only will it cut the junk put through your letter box, it will also free up valuable resources to genuine charities, who are losing out to unlicensed collectors who are making hefty profits at their expense.
14/09/10 @ 13:52
Comment from: michelle [Visitor]
I enjoyed reading your blog. I have heard of these things happening in Glasgow. Were charity bags are being stolen from peoples door steps before the legitmate charity has a chance to collect them. We are filling these bags in good faith that they will benifit the said charity but they are being stolen. I think the only way to safely donate to charity is throught the shops at least then you know were the stuff is going
22/09/10 @ 15:48
Comment from: Max [Visitor]
Hi,im a Derbishire Air Ambulance door to door collection driver and can tell you that every time we come across Little Treasures they steal or try to steal our bags. I feel sorry for this guys,most of them are Lithuanians and dont speak any English. They are extremely poor paid and as they cant get any other job they try to make living by stealing charity bags. Then they take all this bags to local rug trader and sell at a rate of 600-800 pounds per tonn. Normaly its kept in local container storage unit in your area,within 20-40 miles radius till lorry from Poland or Ukraine arrives and takes it all. Cash in hand being paid and normaly charity gets very little if any percentage of it. No taxes or NI contribution being paid either. In my opinion 90 percent of so called charities operating door to door collections are dodgy or semi dodgy and they give very bad publicity for the whole idea. Well,its just my thoughts my im seek and tired of these guys.
12/10/10 @ 19:09
Comment from: Judy [Visitor]
the correct people. If you work for a reasonably large company/school, can I suggest what we did the other day (someone will need to organise though!!). At work we were notified of a date to bring at least one decent item to donate in (we managed much more than that!). The charity were on hand to receive our donations, and we all signed up to Giftaid (for that charity) at the same time and got a card with our unique number. All items sold with this number can claim for GiftAid and I will find out how much they got for my stuff. Nice feedback! The charity were delighted because they were able to sort & price in a room we gave over to them for the day. We'll probably be doing this twice a year and it's scam free!
23/10/10 @ 13:35
Comment from: Judy [Visitor]
Was there a limit to the comment length? 2/3 of my comment has gone and I'm not sure I can be bothered to write it again! Please feel free to delete my comments as they don't make sense (I tried!)
23/10/10 @ 13:40
No limit to comment length i dont think Judy - got the gist of it from your post, great idea.especially handy if work mates all have a clear out and bring it into work on one day, charity benefits and so do all the workers.
Thanks.
24/10/10 @ 01:26
Comment from: Carole [Visitor]
Hi, I too have just had a bag delivered through my letterbox from them for collection on Monday. We live in Exeter, Devon. I definately won't be leaving anything out except the empty bag.
29/10/10 @ 14:41
Comment from: rosieb [Visitor]
I've had a bag through my door this afternoon and reported it to the local council (forest of Dean) and to the charity commission as you suggested. Don't know who else would be interested, certainly not trading standards as I reported the chernobyl collections to them several times and they never bothered to follow through! Very frustrating!Thanks for flagging this
01/11/10 @ 17:34
Hi Rosie,just posting the bag is against the law, as is collecting without a license.
these "collections" always seem to coincide with legitimate licensed collections as well.
all people can do is continue to report it to their local council licensing officer and push via their councillor to prosecute those that are ripping genuine charities off with illegal collections.
Thanks for your feedback
01/11/10 @ 19:45
Comment from: Peter [Visitor]
We got a bag through the door today in London E8. The behaviour of these companies is disgraceful.Thank you for pursuing this issue on behalf of all of us.
04/11/10 @ 12:32
Comment from: Susy [Visitor]
I've just received this (below) from our local Licensing Authority, (King's Lynn, Norfolk), in reply to an email querying the frequent collections made locally by this 'charity'."Further to your enquiry with regards to the above House to House collection I can confirm that this society does not have a House to House Collection Licence issued by this Authority. I have on several occasions written to the society to advise them collection within our borough is illegal and shall be investigating further as to what steps can now be taken,
Many thanks "
In the mean time, I shall continue to use their bags as bin liners. :o)
09/11/10 @ 10:58
Hi Susy,The same response from my local council, who even had the oppotunity to catch them collecting red handed when the police stopped their van (confirmed as their van by little treasures childrens trust staff) the licensing officer went off in the opposite direction and did NOTHING!
It is down to money I was told by the officer, is it really worth persuing a case against them..
well I would answer yes, as they are operating illegally and taking resources away from real charities who depend on their collections to keep going.
Which leads me to ask:
* why are the police not acting?
* why are local councils not acting?
* what do we pay them for? To serve us?
09/11/10 @ 14:35
Here is the Charities commission complaint form link for anyone that wants it:http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Forms/Complaints.aspx
09/11/10 @ 15:03
Comment from: JP Warwick [Visitor]
Thanks to your excellent blog I reported ELT and Little Treasures to our local licensing authority (Warwick DC). They took a long time to respond but have now told me that they have received an application from ELT and have just granted them a license until the end of November. Apparently their 'Licensing Service Manager' was satisfied that Little Traesures was a legitimate charity! They have ignored the fact that their last collection in September was illegally done without a license. I remain of the view that this is a sham charity that is just a front for a commercial enterprise (ELT). The only accounts on the Charity Commission website shows that very little of the money raised goes to sick children. Most of it is consumed in labour and overheads. Is there any way of finding out if the directors or trustees of ELT and Little Treasures include any of the same people?
16/11/10 @ 23:21
I am sceptical about this whole issue.In my dealings with little treasures I spoke directly to their office, they told me that they were about to have a meeting with the directors of ELT, and would raise the issue of illegal collections, as it tarnished the charity's name.
Once I caught their van collecting, little treasures children's trust's own office informed me that the van collecting was one of their own vans and not an ELT collection.
Not 30 minutes later, ELT had been on the phone to my local council licensing office, with an admission that they had not applied or been given a license to collect in my area.
ELT did not at anytime state that the collection was NOT one of their vans (I found this very odd)
There are some posts on other websites (for some reason little treasures childrens trust staff will not post on frugal ways, despite telling me on the telephone that they read the comments and posts put on here) that are made by their staff and argue their case for how much is donated and what they spend their donations on.
ELT donate a very small percentage of what they raise to little treasures childrens trust - which is one reason why so many local councils refuse them a license WHEN they apply for one.
(Check out this link for a council's meeting on it:
http://www.east-northamptonshire.gov.uk/downloads/Item_7b_Licensing_Panel_Mins.pdf
Look at section 8 in the minutes of the meeting)
I have only witnessed a little treasures childrens trust van collecting illegally, the charity's own office talk about this being bad for their charity, but do nothing about it. why? I have no idea.
If it were a charity I was involved in, I would be all over it like a rash, to get things sorted out.
It could of course be the case that little treasures are simply afraid of losing some of their funding, but it could also be the case, as you state, and I and others also suspect, that somewhere ELT and little treasures children's trust maybe linked.
Information on ELT's directors is hard to come by on the internet, but I have read elsewhere that little treasures childrens trust is not only a registered charity, but also registered as a business - IF this is true, would this be standard practice for charities to also have to register as a business?
If it is not, then there maybe a link there.
The annoying part for me is that my local council licensing officer is oblivious to the damage this does (even though he knows what they did in my experience, is illegal - he confirmed this to myself on more than one occasion) and the charity commission are not interested unless they get thousands of the same complaints (as their advisor told me when I rang for advice and to see if they could do anything) not forgetting that legitimate charities are losing out because of this practice.
I shall have another dig around and see what I can find out.
Thank you for the feedback, not my blog that is excellent, it's the support of people such as yourself who are prepared to take a little time to post their experiences, to highlight the issue to stop others falling for the same thing.
PS. If any staff from little treasures children's trust are reading this, please feel free to reply to any of the comments or either of my posts on this matter, it needs sorting out one way or the other, I promise that you will receive a fair hearing.
17/11/10 @ 00:11
On searching Warwick District council's licensing, I can find no result that shows a license or application for a license for either ELT (east london textiles limited) or little treasures children's trust.Very strange.
See for yourself:
http://estates2.warwickdc.gov.uk/LicensingPortal/Forms/search.aspx
17/11/10 @ 00:42
Comment from: bill [Visitor]
its not just this collector at fault , if you read most of these bags they only donate £50 from every tonne of clothes collected to the charity on the bag , all the clothes stay with the company that picks them up ... nspcc and make a wish being the worst offenders . a tonne of clothes is worth over a thousand pounds so were the rest of the money going . never give to the ones that claim so much per tonne or who do not take bric a brac , also look for the accosiation of charity shops logo (3 arrows in a circle)on the bag. they are easy to spot and in fact there is only about eight charitys still taking goods to the shops left .stick to british heart cancer research uk etc and phone and ask were bag is going . a final note is leave your bag inside for them to knock
17/11/10 @ 23:30
Comment from: Gladys [Visitor] 
I too got very annoyed by the emotive images on the collection bags and the frequency with which they are cllecting in my area (Suffolk Coastal). I did get a local trading standards officer to investigate, who communicated regularly with me, but ultimately reported that the company is Kosher and accounts etc. submitted properly. I JUST DON'T BELIEVE IT. All I can do is throw away their collection bags.
30/11/10 @ 10:13
Gladys,I can fully understand your frustration.
In my area little treasures children's trust ADMITTED it was one of their own vans collecting in my area.
They ADMITTED that they did not have a license to collect in my area (and subsequantly post bags through doors either)
Trading standards couldn't even be bothered to ring me back.
I had the registration number of the van, witnesses to their posting bags and making collections without a license, even the council licensing officer to validate what I had complained about.
Trading standards did NOTHING!
Legitimately licensed charities collecting door to door in my area are losing out to this ILLEGAL practice, yet trading standards, my local council and the police, who are responsible for upholding the laws of the land and ending this practice, are not interested.
Why exactly do we pay our taxes?
Only the charity commission will do anything about this, but only if they receive "around 3000 complaints of a similar nature"
30/11/10 @ 13:45
Our school's texile bank has been raided since about September. The people must have a key. This opens up a vast new spect to this problem!The school receives weight credits for the textiles, more per tonne than legitimate charities.
I am unusual, in that I have a key and check our bank on a regular basis. Think of all the other textile banks that aren't monitored! I've put a bit on my blog
26/12/10 @ 14:43
Comment from: Pat Neale [Visitor]
We have a bag from Little treasurs about every 2 weeks here in Shrewsbury in the area I live in and they never deliver to my fathers area where it is mostly lower paid earners. They seem to target the larger houseshere. I have never given to on doorstep charity bags. I put my good quality clothing in a black bag and take it to the charity of my choice. Maybe if we all do this then this despicable thing would not happen.
18/01/11 @ 20:09
Comment from: Daphne Wood [Visitor]
I decided to investigate this outfit, as a similar clothing collection company called W & W Help sent out leaflets and bags, and it turned out that they went into liquidation years ago. The sick thing is that they used the breast cancer logo and purported to donate funds to cancer research.I reported them to Trading Standards, and they have not delivered in the South Bucks area since, so maybe it has worked.
23/01/11 @ 14:08
Comment from: Alan Stanton [Visitor]
This is an interesting original post and comment thread. Although from what I've found out, I don't think ELT or "Little Treasures" are deliberately misleading residents. As a few other clothing collectors wilfully do. (Just as Daphne Wood points out.) In Tottenham where I'm a local councillor we get a lot of these leaflets. I've posted a selection on my Flickr pages, with some links and comments which may be helpful.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanstanton/3454384982/
I advise residents to take their unwanted clothes and other recyclables to charity shops; or to the council's own Reuse Centres.
But people make the choice. So I try to give accurate information about these clothing collection firms. Which ones are working with legitimate charities? Which are dissolved companies - and never filed accounts!
Alan
26/01/11 @ 01:15
Thanks for the feedback Alan.A great site to check out these bags was sent to me by another poster
http://www.charitybags.org.uk/
I would however disagree that the charity and their collecting company are not misleading people.
Collected items are being sold on open markets for between £550 and £600 per tonne, yet only around £50 of this makes it back to the charity.
As some councils who are protecting their area have pointed out, licenses have been refused as this process is deemed to be making excessive profits.
Then there is the problem of the funding being taken away from legitimate collecting charities and the charity shops you advise people to give to.
It's harsh on you I know, but what is the point of spending taxpayer's money on licensing officers, if the councils will not follow up their findings with legal action?
One legal action brought against an unlicensed charity collection sends out a message.
Trading standards agree with me, my local council agree with me, the law agrees with my position.
My local councillor advised me to raise awareness of the problem, as I said to him, what is the point?
People up and down the land are getting bags/leaflets through their doors and seeing vans collecting on their street, there is a very simple law in place to stop them doing this without a license, why is it not being enforced?
26/01/11 @ 10:33
Comment from: Alan Stanton [Visitor]
Thanks, Value hunter. You've raised some fair points. My own view is in London both our local Police and council staff are under enormous pressures. And the horrendous cuts we face are hitting both.
Though it also seems that progress has been and is being made on this problem. It has been raised in Parliament. Some companies have been dissolved. Frankly I'd like to see the Inland Revenue given the resources to use the Courts to recover any unpaid tax owed by the collecting companies and their directors.
I won't pretend that I've given this problem a high priority. Unfortunately, we have many more pressing issues locally. But I also think information giving and raising awareness *are* useful and effective. That's what we're both trying to do.
And also what the superb website charitybags is doing. Many thanks for giving me the link. I've emailed them this evening!
Best wishes,
Alan
26/01/11 @ 18:52
Comment from: Geoff [Visitor]
We have received an ELT "Little Treasures Children's Trust" plastic envelop within the last couple of days with collection scheduled for 3rd of February. This is in the village of Copthorne, West Sussex. I will be reorting them to the local police and TSO. Appropriate legal action must be taken against these individuals.
02/02/11 @ 22:53
I agree Geoff, but first give your council's licensing officer a quick ring, if ELT or Little treasures have been granted a license to carry out doorstep collections in your area, then that's fine.In my area they hadn't even applied for one.
03/02/11 @ 09:23
Comment from: Jane [Visitor]
Just had a bag posted through my door (Sutton in Ashfield, Nottinghamshire) and thought I would check the charity out first before donating. Regardles of whether ELT have a licence or not to collect in my area I would rather give to my local charity shop as you just cannot trust any envelope that pops through the letterbox. This is a shame because there are a lot of decent charities out there who will now miss out, but it's always the few spoiling it for the rest.
03/02/11 @ 12:26
Comment from: D mcLaughlin [Visitor]
This scamming is a disgrace and the TSO and police are useless at stopping it. If its a criminal act to collect without a license it should be dealt as other crimes such as theft. If the authorities wont act when these people are unlicensed then write to your local papers letters section and tell their readers this is an illegal act and a scam and not to donate to them. If they get nothing left out they may quit your area because while people are donating they will keep coming back. The police who can find plenty of staff to police binge drinking teens in almost every town and city in the UK at weekends costing the tax payer billions cry they are overloaded with work and haven't the resources to deal with these types of crime.
Its high time this country got some guts and stamped out these scammers also get rid of the European Human Rights legislation and made our own Human Rights laws. This country is not just broken its wrecked as day after day we see killers and thieves walking free, MP's on the fiddle, Euro MP's getting paid exorbitant wages and expenses for doing very little, illegal immigrants allowed to disappear into society instead of being deported, prisoners demanding the vote, parliament (which itself is corrupt) sending soldiers to needlessly die in a futile war we will never win.
I could go on and on.
Back to the bag collections, they are like drugs, cut the supply and it will dry up.
10/02/11 @ 14:14
The charity commission could step in, they are supposed to be policing charities as well... but unless they get 3000 similar complaints they will do nothing.The latest line from the charity commission on this, is that they are "currently investigating this charity and their collections" - when asked for a timescale when this investigation will be completed (I can prove this in two five minute phone calls) the charity commission refuse to give one.
It could be a month, it could be a year, it could also be that they are fobbing me off and not doing their jobs correctly?
The charity commission will receive £29 MILLION of taxpayer's money this year alone (This is a reduction on what they used to get from the taxpayer) to run their "commission" - wasted money in my opinion, as they are being told about a charity breaking the law and are choosing to do nothing about it.
10/02/11 @ 14:22
Comment from: Jaycee [Visitor]
They are currently posting their collection bags in the Lewes area. Due to collect from the village of Kingston tomorrow Tues 5th April.Last month a family member had a charity bag (due to be collected by HtA) stolen by a man with a van. They seem to be driving ahead of official collections even when they've have been arranged by phone.
Sad and annoying that people can stoop so low as to steal from charity.
04/04/11 @ 20:10
Comment from: Helen [Visitor]
I have today had a donation sack posted through my door for this charity. I have contacted my council to see if a licence has been issued for them to collect in Herefordshire and if so if it is current. I am getting more and more “charity” bags posted through my door many of which I haven’t heard of and all seem to use an agent for collection and only get part of the proceeds from the charitable gifts donated. I have stopped giving to these door to door collections and take things to my local charity shops. However what can be done about all these charity bags that I get pushed, unwanted, through my door? I would recycle them if I knew where they could be recycled.
06/04/11 @ 12:44
Comment from: Visitor [Visitor]
Thanks for writing in your blog about this issue, it is a scam and the collectors dump their bags in a rented unit near me, it is generally the Lithuanians in our area (West Yorks) who are up to these kind of scams, it's big money, all cash, no tax. They just weigh in the clothes for rags, live on the profits and send the rest home.They work around here under several different guises, at the moment they are using a hire van to collect to reduce the chances of getting caught.
It's a shame no-one official can be bothered to do anything about it.
13/04/11 @ 14:03
Comment from: Amy [Visitor]
Someone I know got a bag through the door today from SOS Clothing L.T.D. They are collecting fro The Tree of Hope Charity. The Daily Mirror actually done a story about this mob and when they tried to contact them to ask further question, their office in High Road Ilford was empty.What I find disturbing is the fact that SOS Clothing L.T.D's registered address is 138 South Street Romford. This is the same address as Little Treasures Children's Trust. !!!!!!!
This needs investigating.
05/06/11 @ 02:12
Definately needs investigating Amy (Shame you are not working for the Charity Commission or a local council!)Tree of Hope "charity" will be one of the next posts to go up, as in my area they have carried out 6 door to door collections, under 2 different collection companies, 4 of which, have been unlicensed and illegal.
Perhaps the charity trustees will have some connection, I will definately be looking at this as I was unaware of the same address being used.
Could there be more collection companies at the same address?
Are different charities being set up to get a bigger share of the market?
One thing I have noticed, for a charity trustee, there is remarkably very little information on the people behind it, available on the internet.
This always raises my suspicions.
Thanks for the information Amy, be back soon with a piece.
05/06/11 @ 20:38
Comment from: S Jones [Visitor]
They have blanketed Tenby Wales and all up the West Wales area. Ironically, five days earlier there was another bag (which I have kept as a useful bin liner) claiming to be 'Helpmates' a charity ''for Third World families''.
Further checks online stated them to be a scam with a dodgy ship down Cardiff Docks (South WALES) ready to move to Latvia and then sold on with the management of Serious criminals in the Baltics.
06/06/11 @ 22:41
(In reply to facebook comments) If these collection companies and sometimes the charity themselves, do not have a license from local councils to carry out doorstep collections then they are breaking the law.Local council's consider how much profit the collection companies are making before issuing them a license, either way, the charity commission, in place and public funded to the tune of £21 million per year, to promote and ensure charities are working in the public interest are doing absolutely nothing to stop it.
The commission state that they will investigate, but refuse to tell us how many times they have prosecuted or took action against illegal doorstep collections!
Local councils are also turning a blind eye when it happens in their area.
Until they get a grip, this will continue to happen all over the country with various charities and collection companies.
17/06/11 @ 08:14
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
I have posted my details twice now this is the third time, the first 2 times they have been removed? Obviously you do not like views that go counter to your own prejudices.I work for ELT and I man the help line. If any one wants to talk to me about it call me on 08452714989 a lo-call number (about 3p a minute). I can be emailed on info@eltclothingcollection.co.uk. I am happy to answer any questions. I have only done this job now for about six months so I can only talk about what's happening now, but I can assure you all I checked out ELT and The LTCT before I started as I want nothing to do with a scam.
I'll try to put you right about a few things.
We are licensed in over 100 councils to carry out collections on behalf of the Little Treasures Children's Trust. Where we have not gained a license we do not go, even though the law allows us to do this as follows. If we have applied for a license and not had a reply within 30 days and have made efforts to contact the council to no effect with follow up letters and email. Then we are allowed to assume "Tacit Permission" has been granted.
It is not the Charities Commissions job to follow up on license breaches it is your local councils. Also it is to them you should go to if you want to ask if the collection is licensed. If you do not know the councils number just phone/email me and I will happily give the number to you, we have nothing to hide.
24/06/11 @ 16:58
Hi Arthur,I have not deleted any of your posts (I did try to post a reply in facebook comments but it keeps coming back with an error, hence I'm posting here)
I welcome all feedback, regardless of agreement with my own view or not.
As I stated in the updates to this post, the collection was NOT carried out by ELT.
Little treasures children's trust staff informed me that it was ELT doing the collection and that they were having a meeting with ELT bosses the very same day I rang them, saying that they would sort this matter out as it could have a negative effect on their charity.
When the van came around to collect, I rang the reg number in to little treasures and they admitted it was one of their own vans (Again this is in the post/updates)
If ELT have an issue with this, then I would advise speaking to Little treasures children's trust as it was their staff that advised me ELT were responsible for the collection in my area (Amongst other reasons given)
According to my local council chief licensing officer, "Tacit permission" does not exist. (Do local councils operate under differing local by-laws? He couldn't tell me)
Neither ELT nor little treasures children's trust, had been granted a license for the collection. Posting collection bags alone, is a criminal offence, our licensing officer is adamant about this.
Then driving around and collecting bags is viewed as another criminal act in any action taken.
Neither ELT or LTCT had even applied for a license.
The chief licensing officer went further, stating that it would be highly unlikely a license would be given in the event of an application by ELT, due to the excessive profits made by most collection companies in comparison to the small donations made to charities, if any at all.
It IS part of the charity commission's charter (for want of a better word) to prevent and act when one of the charities registered with them, acts in a way that brings that charity into disrepute.
This has been confirmed by charity commission staff.
You are quite right, local council's should be approached to find out if a collection is licensed - a point I raised at the very beginning of the post.
I welcome your attempts to "put me right about a few things" all information helps, but my information comes directly from the following organisations;
- Local police force
- Charity commission staff
- Council's Chief licensing officer
- Little treasures children's trust staff
If I didn't base my post on FACTS given by these organisations and actual occurances, I would be up before a court.
Far from posting my "prejudices" references to scams and excessive profits come from a collection of council minutes (discussions about refusing doorstep collection licenses) and Trading Standards in Warrington.
Thanks again for taking the time to post.
25/06/11 @ 03:10
Hi again Arthur,This link may be of interest to you?
http://www.east-northamptonshire.gov.uk/downloads/Item_4_Mins.pdf
Scroll down to section 8, hope this helps.
25/06/11 @ 03:47
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
Regarding the council minutes that you mention in the post it is correct we were refused a permit by East Northamptonshire. This was based on false information I believe. In the minutes it is claimed that both Kettering and Reigate and Banstead councils had refused us licenses. This is not technically true. Reigate and Banstead refused us the week beginning 17/05/2010 then granted us a week every month until December when they refused us a week again this was probably due to the weeks in question being booked up by other collectors and have granted us 1 week a month for the whole of this year. Kettering granted us a whole year license from 01/12/2010 until 30/11/2011, but refused us before that as we did not make it clear in our application what percentage goes to the charity. They have now granted us a license as stated as we have clarified the position to them, for your information it is between 78% and 82% of the total amount raised and a minimum of £6250 a month. Also Mr Collins did not go to the meeting of the council due to a clerical error on our behalf, the people who opened the invitation to attend the meeting forgot to tell him.You say we have not applied in your area this I believe to be untrue as we have applied in every council area of the country. However if you let me have your home towns name I will look it up and let you know what the position is. Where this confusion may have occurred is that some councils register an application under the charities name, the name of the collecting company or the name of the person who actually filled in the forms.
Tacit approval is an established fact in general law but not specifically the law that applies here. So the licensing officer is correct when he stated it is not in the relevant legislation. However if they tried to take anyone to court and they could show in their defence that they had applied and tried on several occasions to get an answer, then most judges would say it applies arguing that the council has a duty to reply within a reasonable time frame.However I at this point we are not assuming tacit consent in any council area that I know of.
You talk of excessive profits made by collections companies and I agree if they are excessive then that collection should be avoided. Do you believe that to take @20% of the monies raised is excessive? as this covers all the costs of the bags and distribution of them, the costs of drivers, vans, fuel, tax, insurances etc involved in the collection of the bags. The costs of getting the clothing to the sorting centre, its sorting and final exporting (to over 50 countries in the world, mainly Africa, Asian sub-continent of India and the northern baltic/Russian states) distribution costs and yes a little profit for the company although I cannot emphasise how little that is. As I said ELT makes very little profit from the collection of the clothing as such, where it gains is from being a larger "player" in the second hand clothes market and as such being able to command better prices from the sale of its normal goods.
ELT's normal business is the purchase and exportation of clothing that charity shops do not want and its not the intention of the company to make huge profits out of the collection, just to cover costs etc. Also on the point of profits ELT is giving over £6000.00 (six Thousand pounds) a month to the Little Treasures and has paid out for other items when requested as well. I think you will agree that is well over the £50,000 pounds shown on the bag.These figures can be confirmed i am sure by asking the Little Treasures themselves.
27/06/11 @ 12:04
Comment from: Amy [Visitor]
Hi Value Hunter, I thought that you might find the following link interesting. It is not connected to East London Textiles or Little Treasures Children's Trust but does provide some information regarding the theft of charity bags.http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3064942.ece
27/06/11 @ 12:20
Hi Arthur,I appreciate you taking the time to list some facts that are not obvious to the individual. However that said, questions still remain;
- you admit that the councils listed in the east northamptonshire notes, did refuse ELT a license (I have noted your explanation) but the fact remains when filling out the application, when it was asked "have you ever been refused a license by any other authority?" - ELT answered "No" - this was not true.
It matters not what the circumstance behind the refusals were, the fact is that ELT knowingly made false representation on the application form. This was noted by east northamptonshire when they refused ELT a license.
ELT have applied to every other council in the country, how many times have ELT answered "No" when asked if they have been refused a license by any other authority?
- East northamptonshire council offers had submitted numerous requests for basic information (via telephone calls and letters) and also to confirm if a representative from ELT would appear before them to answer questions.
ELT failed to respond to all these requests.
As regards the invite to attend being missed, fair enough, but what about all the requests for information?
Why were these ignored?
- Profits made from the collections were not made clear, a simple breakdown per tonne of amounts involved would have sufficed. Why wasn't this included in the letter submitted with the application or answered in follow up calls/letters by the council's officers?
- ELT were already carrying out collections in the area, before the council had issued a license, ie, whilst requesting and being refused further information, ELT were already posting bags and collecting them. Not a good way to go about it really is it?
Now back to the other points you raise:
* What is the going rate per tonne of clothes collected when sold on the open market?
Its fine to quote 20% is kept to cover costs, but 20% of what please?
* I have found one of your other comments from May?
You posted it via facebook comments on this post;
http://www.frugalways.co.uk/life.php/little-treasures-children-s-trust-are-threatening-court-action
As you can see, they were not deleted out of my prejudice. I trust you will edit your own facebook comment on this post, to correct it?
In your post there, you state that the charity commission have been down and investigated little treasures children's trust and found nothing untoward, apart from some wording on the bags?
- The charity commission's investigations are supposed to be confidential, which begs the question how have you found out about their investigation and their findings?
- If the charity commission have investigated, then they cant possibly have found everything was in order, as little treasures staff admitted that they themselves were operating clothing collections in my area without a license, as it was one of their own vans doing the collection. Local police and licensing officer would verify this.
I find this very strange indeed.
A charity that have no direct ties with ELT clothing collection company, posting their own bags with ELT's name on them, sending out their own charity vans to make collections, independant of the clothing collection company they advertise, when they proclaim to have nothing to do with clothing collections and in effect, are only permitting ELT to collect in their name?
Have ELT asked little treasures children's trust why they were posting bags, sending their vans out collecting without a license then telling the public that it was ELT's fault for doing it?
I reitterate, ELT did NOT operate the collection this post is about, ELT were blamed for doing it by little treasures children's trust staff.
Are little treasures children's trust people in anyway connected to the people at ELT, the collection company they work with?
As regards the figures quoted for money raised for the charity - little treasure's accounts show that from sept 2009 to jan 2010 (end of year accounts) ELT raised £18,800 for them. This equates to just £3760 per calendar month.
We will have to wait until the end of this year for verification of the figures you have quoted, when little treasures publishes its accounts for 2010/2011
Thanks again.
28/06/11 @ 01:31
Hi Arthur,Me again, just to confirm, I spoke with my local council's licensing officer this afternoon, they have informed me that Little treasures childrens trust, now have a license for collecting in my area.
This was all I wanted them to do.
This all started because I was having bags pushed through my door which were not licensed.
Now LTCT have obtained a license, any further issues can be resolved by my local council, as they grant the licenses.
Thanks again for your feedback Arthur, I suspect you will have your work cut out answering enquiries from many of the other forums out there, that people have posted on.
28/06/11 @ 15:11
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
Sorry I just noted that you had put 2 post up so I'll try to answer the other one now. Yes in the notes we did not say we had been refused. If you notice the dates then the Kettering refusal came after the application date and so we would not have known of it when the application was filled in,we are not psychic, fair answer do you not think? Also Kettering only refused us a licence as we had not made it clear what % was donated and since the refusal we have clarified the position and they have now granted us a licence.
As to Reigate and Banstead it was our understanding that their statement that we could not have the first week we applied for, due to an already full calender for that period and the granting of 6 periods of one week per month until December, did not constitute a refusal as they had granted the 6 periods. At that point we were only just starting out in the door to door collection business and as such had a lot to learn.
In every application we make to every council we list every refusal and give the reasons why that council has refused us.
As to why requests for further information went unanswered I do not know the answer I have to admit. It could be because the person doing it was snowed under (the main reason I am doing the chasing up/follow up of council applications today). This is obviously an area the company has addressed and would hope no council will ever refuse us because we have not supplied the correct or full information.
As to why a simple breakdown of how much per ton is not given is because we have guaranteed the LTCT the amount they will receive. Had we stated we would give x per ton (and I have noted most collectors give only £50per ton) they would not have been receiving as much. We felt, therefore, it was more accurate to specify how much they are guaranteed to receive. This I think you would agree is a fair interpretation of the issue but we accept some councils feel an amount per ton is what they want to know.
The next point as to why some collections were made before we had applied for licences I think this is down to us not being fully aware of the legal position at the time. As I said earlier it was all new to us and we are still learning.
I do not know the going rate of clothing per ton and will ask if I can post a reply. But I think that that information is probably of a commercially sensitive nature and if we stated our rates it could help our competitors out. So if my boss says he is not prepared for that information to be made public I would hope you would understand his position. however I will get back to you and let you know one way or the other.
I apologise for impugning you regarding the deletion of posts I have made and will try to amend Facebook posts made. However on this point I have never attempted to amend any posts I have placed on it so if you can let me know how I will happily do so.
Regarding the Charity Commissions report on LTCT. Obviously we work very closely with the LTCT and they have let us see the final report from the CC. We are currently having the bags redesigned to take into account the CC's comments. In the meantime they have granted us some time to use up the stock of bags we already have.
Regarding the comments about the LTCT doing its own collections my personal understanding is, and I could be wrong, That it was our vehicles and that the LTCT made an error when answering the question. The rational of it being that the bags are put out in the charities name and therefore they work for the charity. Again at that point they and us were new to the collections business and I suspect mistakes were always going to happen. At no point were any of LTCT staff and our staff connected in any way as far as I know, apart from the fact we collect for them.
Hopefully we will go forward and not make as many mistakes as we did when setting out, although with human beings being involved I do not think that can be guaranteed in any way.
By the way the LTCT is a young energetic, well intentioned and I believe exceptional charity. One I am proud to be associated with.
Should you want to know anything more now or in the future please contact me and I will do my best to assist you and any bloggers to the fullest of my abilities.
I can be emailed on info@eltclothingcollection.co.uk
or by telephone on 08452714989 this is a low cost line (only 2.9p/minute from a bt landline ) we pick up the difference between the actual cost and that charged to you. I suspect the cost from mobiles will be greater than that.
Regards
Arthur
30/06/11 @ 16:06
Hi Arthur,Thanks for the clarifications.
License refusals - "Just starting out" and "still learning" would be more believable had it not still been going on months later.
http://www.tswarrington.co.uk/pdf/ican/188littletreasureschildrenstrust.pdf
Warrington borough council and Trading standards were warning about unlicensed collections from little treasures children's trust and/or east london textiles ltd, in october 2010
"some collections were made before we had applied for licences I think this is down to us not being fully aware of the legal position at the time." - but in the case of east northamptonshire council, you had already made the application, showing you were fully aware of the need for a license and the processes involved in that area and posted bags, made a collection before any decision about the license was made.
"Yes in the notes we did not say we'd been refused [a license]" - when asked if you had been refused a license, you said "No" - it wasn't a case of you not answering or not letting them know, your company answered the question, when they knew that answer to be false.
Granted, you hadn't been refused by one council when submitting the application, so could not have known, but you were refused by another authority and chose to hide this fact by making a false claim on your application.
Amount raised per tonne and amount LTCT have been guaranteed - if you guarantee an amount to little treasures, what happens when the selling price per tonne increases, you get more profit the charity continue to get a fixed amount.
I was asking for the selling price per tonne on the open market, just a ballpark figure would have done.
I don't accept that it is fairer to guarantee how much LTCT would receive instead of declaring how much per tonne they would get.
No one can calculate how much east london textiles receives per tonne, and any council worth their salt are perfectly within their rights to have a straight answer to this question.
This would not be public knowledge so it would not be commercially sensitive information.
LTCT may have been mistaken regarding collection vans - not so, they at first blamed your company, then openly admitted that it was NOT an east london textile's van but one of their own vans doing the collecting.
I say again, east london textiles were NOT involved in this unlicensed collection - everything that went on was in relation to little treasures children's trust.
I don't appreciate or trust a charity (or any company for that matter), whom when contacted directly, pass the blame onto another company or another scenario, as being at fault.
Who then admit to being at fault and try to break the law (data protection act) sending solicitors letters to close down this (and other) websites by making up false claims to obtain information about website owners.
It does not inspire confidence when a charity would try to have removed from public view what happened in dealings with them.
Looking around on other websites, it appears that I am not alone in this view.
30/06/11 @ 20:14
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
HiI grant you the point about amounts per ton raised would be valid if we had not guaranteed the LTCT that they would receive a set amount at least and that we would only cover costs and anything over our costs, if greater than the set amount would go to the charity. The company owners are not that interested in making huge profits out of the collection, as I said earlier due to having more products to sell we are able to guarantee our customers higher quality, more goods and are able to command better customer loyalty and that will increase the companies profits without taking one iota from the charity collection. What the price of clothes on the second hand market is will fluctuate from time to time but our guarantees to the charity will not.
Regarding the refusal which we did not notify the council about when applying for a permit. I state again it is our understanding that when a council say's you can have some weeks but not others it is not a refusal to issue a permit as such. A refusal to issue a permit is when you do not meet the requirements that a council sets for the issue of said license. We had met the requirements of Reigate and Banstead council as shown by the fact they issued us with permits for some weeks but due to having collectors in the area already we were not given others.
If I can make an analogy to you. I would ask you to think of the following case. If you go to your doctor and he says you need an operation for a minor condition and he says he has asked the hospital to do it the next week. However the hospital have stated to him, as its a minor operation, that although it meets the requirements of the NHS and can be done by them, they cannot fit you in next week. You will have to wait until all the operations they have booked in are done, then you can have your operation, which will be next month. Now the question! Have you been refused your operation? I would say not. I would say you have met the requirement conditions and will have the op but not as soon as you would like.
Now I know you may say perhaps we still should have told them, but it was and still is our opinion that Reigate and Banstead council did not refuse us a license.
Regarding the making of mistakes. I accept that some had been made after we were aware of the license requirements. Mostly these have been down to our staff not realising that council boundaries are not easily spotted and that they need to consult the maps every day they are making a collection. I know that this is the companies responsibility and we have put in place some measures that should go a long way to ensuring our collectors do not stray out of the licensed areas. Every collector has to tell us the towns and villages in the area that he is intending to visit and both myself and my colleague in this office check out the license position and then feed back to the collector if it can go ahead. This is good at spotting and stopping the collectors from going into the wrong area but there are still times when they give us the name of a town and its county. We look it up and say ok only to find out later that there is another town of the same name in the same county but a different council. We are currently having bespoke software designed in order to stop this happening but it does take time for this to be done.In the meantime I have written an Excel spreadsheet that has every town and its council, in the whole of Britain, on it to try and minimise mistakes. If anyone is interested there are over 26270 cities, towns and villages that I have identified so far on the list.
In order you can understand how hard it is sometimes to ensure you you do not stray out of area would you like to consider the following example. There are in the mainland of Britain over 132 towns that are called Newton or Newtown and thats not including 88 Newton Something's or Newtown Something's (invariably called just Newton or Newtown). Of all these towns 10 are in Hampshire alone, which has 13 different licensing authorities. Of these authorities we have licenses in 9 and are waiting for licenses in 4. Of the ones who have licensed us some give a year long permit others give certain weeks each month and some only a week here and a week there.
Given the above I am sure you can see there are possibilities for mistakes to be made. We should not make them but we are human.
I can also add where we have found out our collectors are in an area they should not be, we do tell them to leave immediately and we tell them we will dismiss them should they fail to do so.
01/07/11 @ 14:19
Comment from: Scott [Visitor]
As I have experience of Local Government administration as well as the conduct and operation of charities within the UK, could I (as politely as possible) counter the assertion made earlier that if a Local Authority fails to grant an application in accordance with the applicant's time-scale, then the applicant is entitled to believe that "tacit consent" exists.Well, yes. A thug can go off and drive a Hackney cab without a Local Authority licence because he reckons the licensing Panel should've met when he wanted them to. Not when the Panel did.
A builder can go ahead and clear a site of timber under Tree Preservation Orders because he's fed up of waiting for the Local Authority to reach a decision and so is exerting his legal right to despoil and destroy as he wishes.
Yeah. Right.
The Law is very simple, and very specific, where Local Authority administration is concerned:
1. You make an application for a license or other form of consent and:
2. You await the Local Authority's decision.
Ends.
If you contend the Local Authority has acted in so tardy a fashion as to materially affect your financial interests, your individual or corporate reputation or well-being, then you are entitled to bring a civil action against the Council and pursue it for damages.
The Law gives no company, charity, or commercial enterprise the legal right to presume the outcome of an application to a Local Authority for, well, anything.
And if the poster thinks otherwise, a check with the Local Government Association will rapidly demonstrate just how many people have fallen -- expensively -- foul of legislation when, having "presumed" they have "tacit consent" for, say, a barn conversion, or an extra-large conservatory, suddenly find they're compelled to pull the whole lot down.
01/07/11 @ 18:03
Comment from: Samara [Visitor]
Well said Scott, I wonder of ELT's Legal Eagle will be able to respond to the excellent points that you raised.
02/07/11 @ 23:27
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
I am no "Legal Eagle" by any way. I am just letting you know an interpretation of the law. Tacit consent can be construed as follows1, Where you can show you have made strenuous efforts to contact the council but have had no reply. We send applications by registered signed for mail, we follow up with emails and logged telephone calls.
2, And where there is no actual national legal requirement to obtain permission and in this case there is not. The law gives councils the right to control it but does not demand that they do control it, as shown by the fact some council tell us we do not need licenses, some will only allow certain weeks a month or a year some grant full annual licenses. Unlike the planning permission example where the law requires the council to control it.
3, Where you can show you meet all the requirements and could reasonably assume you will be granted a license. We have been granted licenses by over 150 councils .
Allowing for all this Tacit Consent is a defence in law and applies across the board. For example If you are given a new contract at work which reduces your terms and conditions and you do not sign it but you do not actually tell them you are refusing to sign it after 13 weeks they are allowed to assume tacit consent and your terms are changed. I know this is true because i fell fowl of it in my last position where I was issued a new contract, in which cut my sick pay from 9 moths to 3 months, I did not sign it, I point blank refused to sign it. Later I broke my back in an accident and after 13 weeks they stopped my sick pay. When I took them to a tribunal I found out that by not handing my notice and seeking constructive dismissal when the contract was issued. It was deemed I had granted Tacit Consent to the changes and I lost the case.
Also for you all to consider is the fact the law only grants councils the right to control charitable collections. If we said we are collecting for us as a company, if we said not one bean goes to charity then we would not need to ask any council for permission. It is only because we are collecting for a charity and not for profit, and that charity is registered in the UK with the charities commission that the councils can control us if they wish to. And if they wish to we comply with everything they ask. As I said in a previous post we do not assume Tacit consent anywhere as far as I am aware and I am aware of the licensing position of the majority of the councils in Britain.
My posts have not been to try to bluff people or pull the wool over your eyes I am certain if I tried that it would be noticed. My only reason in posting has been to try to clarify the companies position and point out it is not a scam but a genuine collection for a charity that I feel is worthwhile.
For future interest it appears that the charities commission may and I do say may be taking over the licensing of collectors. A situation we would heartily approve of. We would urge the government to go further and would like to see any collection whether it for a charity or for a profit making company have to apply for a permit.
04/07/11 @ 16:29
Comment from: samara [Visitor]
Facts are Mr Jackson, ELT were collecting in some areas without a license. This cannot be excused and this is not the only blog on the internet that is highlightingserious concerns about your company and Little Treasures Children's Trust. Have a read and you can prepare your next long speech.
At this rate you are going to have to get someone else to answer the helpline in order for you to continue to respond to all of these comments!
04/07/11 @ 23:35
I would object most strongly to the charity commission taking over the issue of licenses. There are numerous occasions whereby the charity commission has received complaints about charities and/or collection companies collecting without licenses, where they have taken no action.The charity commission have even suggested that collection practices are the responsibility of another quango.
They are not in place (receiving more than £21 million per year of taxpayer's money) to merely "work with" charities, they are there to prevent charity falling into disrepute, upto now, something they have failed at on every level.
If all the charity commission can do is point people in the direction of other quangos and/or trading standards or local councils then exactly what is their purpose?
Charity commission should be closed down and the funding they receive redirected to trading standards/councils
05/07/11 @ 14:22
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
In reply to Samara yes mistakes were made. We admit that when we started out we did not know the law inside out and in fact we still find councils who do not know the law fully. We have been advised that as we are a commercial company and are not directly a charity (we only collect on their behalf) we are not required to be licensed that advice came from the Charities Commission. Our understanding is that this advice is not the interpretation many councils use and therefore we apply for licenses now. But in the beginning that was the advice we tookGiven that even the charities commission can get things wrong, how can it be expected we would get everything right when we first started out.
As for writing a speech all I have tried to do is answer any questions or points people have raised as honestly as I can.
As to "Value Hunters" remarks re the charity commission I find myself concurring. Had they given more accurate advice then perhaps we would have made no mistakes and this forum would not have come into existence! well at least not with us as the "culprits"
BTW you mention other blogs are talking about the subject can I ask what they are?
06/07/11 @ 09:30
Make your mind up Arthur.On the 4th of July you said - "For future interest it appears that the charities commission may and I do say may be taking over the licensing of collectors. A situation we would heartily approve of"
Today you say - "As to "Value Hunters" remarks re the charity commission I find myself concurring. Had they given more accurate advice then perhaps we would have made no mistakes and this forum would not have come into existence! well at least not with us as the culprits"
As for other forums/blogs, try these from search engine results;
http://mydadsacommunist.blogspot.com/2009/09/bit-of-scam.html
http://www.chesterfieldforum.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1319&start=0
http://www.gatleynet.co.uk/gatley-forums/gatley-local-issues/charity-clothing-collection-scam
http://www.aldbourne.info/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=3150&sid=50daee4f1acb63f6c9921226a0dfc55b
http://mydadsacommunist.blogspot.com/2010/02/bit-of-scam-revisited.html
http://www.eastherts.gov.uk/index.jsp?articleid=22094
That should keep you busy for a while.
06/07/11 @ 10:22
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
Sorry I wrote the bit about the charity commission taking over the licensing and what I should have said was we would approve of anyone taking over the licensing from local authorities as they all set different standards and some have none. what we would approve of is a set of standards that if you meet them you can be approved of anywhere whereas at the moment we can meet all of the standards of nearly all of the councils but get refused for some spectacularly stupid reasons ie one council has refused us a permit because we pay our collectors, they will only issue permits to collectors who are 100% voluntary. Yet the law allows companies who do not give as much as a penny to charity to collect in that councils area. How silly is that?On reflection though I should have added we would prefer a different authority than the charities commission thats what I meant
07/07/11 @ 16:54
The reason this post exists, is that people continue to post charity bags through our door, when we dont want them!We have put up a polite sign, which is ignored. On this occasion, the little treasures childrens trust person, posting bags, completely ignored the sign and when i gave her the bag back, she threw it in my garden and walked off.
Our home is ours, should it not be for us to decide if we want the constant stream of junk pushed through our door?
Charity bags, leaflets, companies advertising our area as prime for businesses to advertise to (when they put nothing into the area) councils doing nothing about it, councillors who sit on committee after committee talking shop but doing nothing, charity commission spending millions each year of our taxes (whilst libraries close) pretending to regulate charities that dont apply for a basic license, to gain permission and to be vetted properly for making door to door collections, it goes on and on.
I am sick to the back teeth of hipocritical councils/public bodies lecturing me on recycling, when I get easily at least 6 deliveries of junk mail/charity bags every week, yet when they have the opportunity to do something about it, for the people that pay their wages.... they choose to do nothing!
What annoys me more than anything else, is when charities post bags, ignoring the laws in place and ignoring people who have politely requested that no bag is posted, even when the bag is returned to the poster, they have scant regard for the individual.
its wrong and should be stopped with immediate effect.
07/07/11 @ 21:27
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
Hi Value HunterCan I ask you to send me the postcode of you property via email and I will look into the actions of the girl who threw them bag on your garden. We have a standing instruction they are to take notice of any signs that are displayed and she should definitely have taken it back if you gave it to her. This is not following our company instructions and I would like to identify her and have a few choice words in her ear.
Please note the postcode identifies the town, county and the street but not the individual property. This then will allow me to identify her as our software is postcode driven.
As a representative of the company I apologise to you, unreservedly for the inconsiderate actions of the delivery agent.
12/07/11 @ 14:43
You have no need to apologise Arthur, as was confirmed by the charity - it was NOT east london textiles carrying out the delivery/collection.The employee posting the bags worked for the charity and not your collection company.
14/07/11 @ 00:38
Comment from: lynn shepherd [Visitor]
I too have received yet another bag through my letterbox and I am always suspicious of these. I do think we finish up being cynical about every charity collector. I went onto their website and they maintain the door collection provide the funds to continue their work. We are constantly helpless to protect ourselves from one scam and another where no-one is interested. Thank you for your own work
15/07/11 @ 09:10
Hi Lynn,How annoying is it when we are paying millions to official bodies, who do nothing to safeguard us?
I don't think it should be up to individuals to have to research for information, if official bodies, we are told, are in place to look out for us.
I just want an easy life Lynn, thanks for posting.
15/07/11 @ 09:57
Comment from: M_prime [Visitor]
Good site. We get huge numbers of these bags from everyone and his dog. It clear a lot of money is being made by the organisers, it's like chugging (paid for street collections for charities) the charity gets x% and the collector gets y%. Guess who gets most of your cash! Fight back. By all means use the bags, but deliver the filled bags to a charity shop or Salvation army bin. Never give the bags back to the collectors and tell as many people as possible to do the same. The deliveries and collections cost the companies cash and if very few people use their bags they wont keep wasting their time and cash on a barren area. If you want to support the charity send a cheque direct with a letter about your disgust at the use of profiteering middle men.
16/07/11 @ 09:06
Comment from: Scott [Visitor]
Following on -- belatedly, so apologies! -- from Arthur's post of July 4th last, which states this at the outset:I am no "Legal Eagle" by any way. I am just letting you know an interpretation of the law. Tacit consent can be construed as follows:
1, Where you can show you have made strenuous efforts to contact the council but have had no reply. We send applications by registered signed for mail, we follow up with emails and logged telephone calls.
2, And where there is no actual national legal requirement to obtain permission and in this case there is not.
In answer to which, could I point out that:
(1) is a fantasy and:
(2) downright bizarre.
Arthur may not be a "Legal Eagle" but it doesn't require membership of The Law Society to have an awareness of the provisions of The House to House Collections Act, 1939.
That legislation has been around a lo-nnn-g time (there's a clue in its title.)
It specifically relates to registered charities such as Little Treasures Children's Trust.
It does not relate to any sub contractor of a registered charity. . . because there's no reason why it should.
East London Textiles is the appointed sub contractor of Little Treasures Children's Trust.
And that's all it is.
If Arthur doesn't know the Law, fair enough: he's working for a sub contractor. But I thought this debate was about the actions of the charity itself -- in which case, Arthur's contributions are peripheral, comprehensive though they undoubtedly have been.
26/07/11 @ 16:43
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
Further to my comments about tacit consent I have cut and pasted the views of Manchester council regarding this subject see below.The question was "Will Tacit Consent Apply?"
The councils answer was as cut and pasted below
"Tacit Consent will apply.
This means that you will be able to act as though your application is granted if you have not heard from Manchester City Council by the end of the target period.
Please note Tacit Consent will only apply once a full application has been submitted and you have received an acknowledgment from Manchester City Council."
This was taken from the councils web site and I have put the link below for anyone who does not believe me.
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/8919/house_to_house_collections-online
04/08/11 @ 16:58
Comment from: Emestina [Visitor]
I gotta bookmark this website it seems very beneficial very helpful
20/09/11 @ 05:27
Comment from: GLENN [Visitor]
I have been reading the comments on this site with great intrest.maybe I can answer some of the unanswered questions,why do you still get bags pushed through your letterbox when you have a notice saying not to,simple this company employs people who dont speak a word of english and are very low paid,is tax and ni paid?. The price of good quality door to door clothing on the open market is between £1100 to £1300 per tonne unsorted. Now if this company is collecting all over the country as stated on other sites its a mighty lot of money for such a small donation to the charity,even allowing for cost of collecting.
24/09/11 @ 15:41
Comment from: b maguire [Visitor]
you might like to teach your people who deliver your charity bags to read as it clearly says on my letterbox no junk mail no flyers and no CHARITY BAGS i have called you on this matter on your 0845 number to moan in the past and have given them back to your delivery person and told them not to leave them all you are doin is alianatin your charity and costing it money putting them in places thay are not wanted
17/10/11 @ 15:08
When no license is in place, the police should be prosecuting, along with the local council.The biggest waste of all is the charity commission, more than £21 MILLION per year, "to protect the name of charity" yet when a collection takes place without a license and reported to them, they do nothing and have nothing to say on the matter.
18/10/11 @ 09:34
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
The biggest problem with these collections is the fact only genuine charitable collections are covered by the law. Only they have to apply for a license. The collections on behalf of companies who are lining their own pockets is not covered by the law and nothing can be done about them. It is a position that may change as the powers that be are considering bringing all collections under the one umbrella legislation, which is to be applauded.As for the Charities Commission doing nothing about illegal collections, it is not within their power as the law is currently set-up, they are powerless in this area apart from calling the Charities and requesting they look at the procedures in place.
The people with the authority to do something about it are your County Council, Unitary Authorities or Metropolitan Councils Licensing and or Trading Standards departments. Unfortunately they have far more important things (in their eye's) to do. Also it is hard for them to actually prosecute unless they have refused to issue a license and warned the collectors that any collection will be stamped on hard.
If they have received an application and unless they specifically state that "Tacit Consent" does not apply, then I am afraid they have shot themselves in the foot as "tacit Consent" does apply, see the link to Manchester councils interpretation on the subject I posted earlier.
The other issue is a lot of councils take the view that most collections done on behalf of a charity by a commercial company are exempt from the regulations. A view we do not agree with but have to accept.
All of these lead to a free for all which we are very opposed to. we would like for the councils to control the problem not abrogate their responsibility for it.
With regards to B Maguires complaint, it is true in the industry we tend to use a lot of foreign staff to leaflet an area this is true of most leaflet deliverers as indigenous people are not prepared to do the work for the pay. This does result in them not being able to read the notices and before you say it, it is considered racism to insist on someone who works for you being able to read and write English. To counter the "no speak/understand English" attitude some people can have we have issued instructions to our staff that if there is a notice on the door, they are to assume it states "no bags" and not deliver. I would be most interested therefore in where this happened so I can get hold of the individual or his manager and explain how it alienates the general public and ensure they do not do it again.
I hope this explanation helps
18/10/11 @ 15:32
Arthur,In your case, where you are collecting on behalf of little treasures children's trust, there are a few questions to answer.
* I asked my council's chief licensing officer about "tacit consent" - he's adamant that no such consent exists within our council and as far as he is aware, under most other councils as well. He points me to the House to House collections act, which has no reference of "tacit consent" and as such, would over ride any legal ground a council has to over rule the law/act.
Our council applies the act as its basis for issuing licenses for charitable collections of all kinds.
He also asked if your staff had full identifying badges and the correct registrations - I ask as the little treasures children's trust staff collecting without a license in my case, had no identification on them and were not registered anywhere.
Under the House to House collections act, it also states that any collections MUST benefit the local community. I have yet to see any evidence of little treasures children's trust work benefitting anyone in my area, seeing as we are about 400 miles away from where they are based, it doesn't surprise me. I think someone has already posted a comment pointing this out.
The matter of granting a license to a charity who do not meet the "local" criteria, do not have identification or identity registration and have collected previously without first obtaining a license in a licensed area are currently being taken up with local councillors and its licensing office.
You are also incorrect to state the charity commission have no duristiction.
The commission have a responsibility to uphold the good name of charity and protect it from being brought into disrepute.
More than £21 MILLION pounds per year of taxpayer's money they receive to do this, as yet they have taken no action on this damaging series of events, nor do they have one single comment to make when the question is asked of what they are doing about it.
All this does not even touch on the matter in hand - I do not want people pushing things through my letterbox, end of.
21/10/11 @ 18:03
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
In answer to the point about "Tacit Consent" it is not written into the act but is an accepted fact of law. The law governing the collections states basically that a council HAS to issue a license if conditions are met, there is no wriggle room, a license must be issued if conditions are met (see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/2-3/44 ) . Now if conditions are not met they have to act and tell the collector a license is refused and on what grounds. They cannot just ignore an application as that would constitute an illegal refusal. So if an application has been made and the council has not refused it or responded in a reasonable timespan what is the collecting charity to do? As far as they are concerned they meet the conditions, the council has a duty to issue them a license, so why should they not assume tacit consent. As far as I know no charity has been prosecuted for breach of license conditions where they have been able to show they believe tacit consent applied. But I stand to be corrected!And I am sorry but all the charity commission can do about it is ask the charity to look at the procedures they have in place, possibly they could remove the charities charitable status but that would be after a lot of complaints whereas your councils Trading Standards and Licensing departments can act on the first and only incident if they so desired, But I feel they are not willing to put any time into it as they gain nothing from it. I guarantee if they could charge for a license they would act far quicker and control it a lot better.This I would like to see.
I would also like to see it made an offence to post unwanted items through someone's door where they have a notice stating no such items please. At present they are not breaking any laws . Before you say they are trespassing, they are not, emphatically not. That is because by having an unlocked gate and a letter box you are seen as extending an invitation to anyone to approach your door and deliver. Trespass requires someone to go where they know they are not allowed by either climbing fences or gates or going through holes in them and normally they have to cause some damage.
Although I am probably seen as a defender of the charitable collections I have a notice on my door and I expect it to be followed. God help the guys who post through my door especially if they are from my charity which is why I will try and ensure our guys are not delivering where it is not wanted and where they should know that.So if any of our people do not follow any directions on a notice on your please let me know and I will definitely be speaking to the people involved.
24/10/11 @ 14:36
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
BTW further to my last, if you follow the link to the act in my last post you will see that at no point does it state charities must benefit the local community only or even mention any benefit to the local community. It also does not state badges must be worn unless a council wants that to be the case and then they will put it in the terms of the license and where they do we follow the request. I would hope other charities would follow, what is a reasonable request, if asked to do so.
24/10/11 @ 14:57
- "Tacit consent" is NOT an accepted fact of law, my council's chief licensing officer has stated this is the case and he has provided evidence of the house to house collections act to support this, as you have now conceded.- The council HAS to issue a license if conditions are met - you have neglected to include the very next sentence in the legislation, "subject to the following provisions of this section"
The provisions for refusing a license are as follows;
* the total amount given to the charity as a result of the collection, is inadequate to proportion to the proceeds received - Little treasures children's trust received a small percentage of the funds raised from their unlicensed collection in my area, judging by their own submissions to the charity commission. The going rate per tonne for selling clothing is around the £600 mark, charities of all names receive between £50 to £100 per tonne. Collection companies operating in their name are making substantial profits instead of just covering "overheads" (This is without even going into where shoes, books, etc, are being sold on)
* that the applicant or holder of the licence has refused or neglected to furnish to the authority such information as they may have reasonably required for the purpose of informing themselves - will you now reveal how much per tonne east london textiles keeps for themselves per tonne?
Little treasures children's trust not only didn't disclose this information to my council, they never applied for a license in the first instance!
"So if an application has been made and the council has not refused it or responded in a reasonable timespan what is the collecting charity to do"
- errrrr wait or make enquiries again?
You cannot assume tacit consent exists just because you are waiting for a license application to go through a council. I'll say it again, little treasures children's trust DID NOT have a license for their collection in this case, they DID NOT have an application for a license awaiting a decision, they DID NOT apply for a license.
Regardless of your opinion of "tacit consent" the collection they made in this case, was committing a criminal offence.
Without a valid license, wether it is by a charity or with a company representing the charity, any house to house collection is illegal.
For your reference:
House to House collections act 1939 (ammended 1947)
Section 5 - regulations include the following amongst other provisions;
(a) ... secure compliance by collectors under the regulations
(b) No promoter of a collection shall permit anyone to act as a collector, unless he has issued to that person -
(i) A prescribed certificate of authority;
(ii) A prescribed badge;
(c) In the case of a collection where a license had been granted, every prescribed certificate of authority, shall be given on a form obtained from H.M. stationary office, and every prescribed badge shall be so obtained.
(e) No collector shall importune any person to the annoyance of such person, or remain in, or at the door of, any house, if requested to leave by the ocupant thereof
(f) The promoter of the collection must, within one month of license expiry, furnish an account of the collection to the licensing authority
Section 4 of the Act states that a Chief Constable of a policing area may grant exemption from a license, providing a collections certificate, if they are satisfied that the purpose of the collection is local in character.
24/10/11 @ 16:41
Comment from: kathy [Visitor]
glad I looked up Little Treasures children's trust, was suspicious as not heard of them. Now making sure all my neighbours are using the bags as bin liners!!
29/10/11 @ 17:07
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
Did you look at Manchester's viewpoint on Tacit Consent or is your licensing officer the only one in the land to understand the law? Tacit Consent has a legal basis in law I suggest you ask a solicitor about it as I said I have never heard of anyone being found guilty of a breach of the regulations where they have proved Tacit Concent. Show me where a judge has said it does not count and has found a person guilty.You say I left bits out I did not leave out anything I said "The law governing the collections states basically that a council HAS to issue a license if conditions are met, there is no wriggle room, a license must be issued if conditions are met" I did not say what the conditions were as that is not relevant. IF they are met then the council MUST issue a license. to sit back and do nothing is breaking the law by them and that is why in law you are able to assume tacit consent. Ask your licensing officer if he can refuse a license if the conditions are met. You will find they cannot refuse to issue one, so for them to sit back and do nothing is not an acceptable position in law and it would equate to an unlawful refusal, which is why tacit consent applies. No it is not written into the act but is an accepted part of the British legal system. Why you seem concerned about this is moot as we are licensed everywhere we go.
Commercial Collectors do not require licensing if they have nothing to do with any charity and some councils say they do not require licensing even if they promise to donate to a charity. It is only where the householder has every reason to suspect the collection is for charitable purposes only a license is required.
How much we get per tonne is not something I am aware of as it is not something I need to know to do my job. However I do know we retain just 18% of the proceeds of the sale to cover the costs of the collection and of which just 4% is kept as profit. Do you consider 4% excessive? We have to send the councils audited accounts of the collections after each collection period and the council make sure we stick to the figures and do not retain more than we declare.
I know where you are coming from on this though. Most bags say we will pay £50 per tonne to the charity. That is for legal reasons and has to appear to satisfy the Advertising Standards Authority. We have had to have that added to our bags in order to comply and my boss is annoyed as we have a contract which states we will pay to the Little Treasures a set amount each month (Currently over £8,000.00) and will top that up if the amount we would be retaining goes over our 18% which we declare to councils. If we only paid them £50 per ton they would only be receiving a pittance but we have to have the figure on the bags as a set amount and not a floating one.
I am assuming you are putting in the bit about a police chief constables power to over-rule a council if he feels it is a local charity to show that a collection has to be of a local nature? Not so a collection does not have to have anything to do with your local area, for example the Norfolk air ambulance has collected in Essex before. As long as they have approached the council no problem. In this case they could not get police permission as they are not local and police permission does not have to be sought. However take the following scenario what if they had been refused permission by Norfolk council, they can ask the Norfolk Chief Constable to look at it and over-rule them, if he feels they are deserving and local.
The fact non-local charities can collect is how some of the major ones work Oxfam for example have never worked in this country let alone your local council but they are rightly permitted to collect all over the country. Also it is why little charities working in Ethiopia etc can collect. What you should be upset about is people purporting to collect for breast cancer etc but when you look at the bags you see its in Lithuania etc and not this country, but the bag to all intents and purposes fools you into thinking it the British Breast Cancer charity. Have a go at them by all means and you will have me on your side. But why have a go at a charity that may have not fully understood the issue when starting out. Is doing a good job in this country and really wants to make a difference to the lives of disadvantaged children in this country.
01/11/11 @ 16:32
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
KathyI am sorry you have come to the decision you have but I can assure you the collection is not a scam. In fact I will tell everyone what to do to find out if a collection in your area is a scam. Pick up the telephone and ring your local area council's licensing department and ask them if the collection is licensed or is exempt from the regulations, exemption is granted by the home secretary to charities who are shown to be licensed in a lot of councils and for a long time in order to minimise admin costs.
If and I repeat IF they are licensed they have had to prove to the council they meet all the regulations. The scammer's wont even bother to apply.
01/11/11 @ 16:44
Arthur,some simple FACTS for your consideration.
In my original post, Little treasures children's trust acted in an unlawful manner, breaking the law as set down by the house to house collections act, by their following actions;
- LTCT did not apply for a license in an area where a licensing authority was in place.
- LTCT did not have a license to both post bags and collect them, which is unlawful
- LTCT did not meet the criteria for staff collecting, in that they displayed no official identification, including the lady posting bags through letterboxe, which is an offence under the act in ANY area of the country.
- LTCT did not have official certification, needed to carry out their collections in ANY area of the country.
- LTCT refused my notification and requests, to NOT leave a bag at my property, which is a breach of the house to house collections act.
- LTCT did not notify the licensing authority of the value raised or percentage used for "costs" of the collection.
Exactly what part of little treasures children's trust's actions in this case, points to them NOT being a scam?
* "why have a go at a charity that may have not fully understood the issue when starting out."
- Laughable this is Arthur.
I'll have a go at them because little treasures doorstep bag deliverers ignored my request to NOT post a bag through my door, ignored my requests to verify that they had a license, displayed no form of ID or certification to officially show who they were.
Staff at their head office blamed ELT for what happened, then said that they would put "an immediate stop to the collection" - which was a lie, as two days later, one of their own vans turned up in our area and collected. Only then did the staff at little treasures concede that it was their own van making the collection.
The police stopped their van soon afterwards and warned them about delivering bags and collecting in the area, giving them strict instruction not to do it!
With their van returning to their base in London, armed with the knowledge that what they were doing was wrong, according to police, wrong according to members of the public and wrong under the law and informed so by the council, what do you think little treasures children's trust did then?
That's right... they moved on to the neighbouring area and did exactly the same all over again!
On searching the internet, they were found to be doing this in many different areas of the country, not just on blogs and forums, but also warnings were posted by trading standards departments!
I take it from your comments that ELT and little treasures collection staff now have all the correct identification and certification from the authorities?
01/11/11 @ 19:12
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
I suppose I must accept that what you say happened is true as you have no reason to lie at all and it happened before I took up my position with ELT (Nov 2010) and especially as you say it was the charity and not ELT doing it.Yes it is unlawful to not apply for a license if you are representing a charity to do Door to Door collections. I know now that ELT are doing the collections for the charity we strive very hard to obey the law in all cases. However our drivers are human and have strayed over council borders once or twice in the past. Drivers are always warned that what they are doing is illegal and if they persist in doing it ie do it twice they are dismissed.
Badges are given to the drivers if the councils require it, some councils do not. We also issue a company identity card to all our staff after they have been employed for about 14 to 21 days.
And I must say if any of our staff are so rude as to put a bag through a door where there is a notice then I want to know so I can have a go at them.
10/11/11 @ 15:51
Comment from: petpro [Visitor]
Got an Idea that this mob were reported to the TSO last year in this Area. I phoned this companys Number and asked how much went to the Charity.. Not sure but I believe it was £2000, or so he said.Dug a bit further and then saw there warehouse which I believe was in a farm building, saw the clothes being sorted, and then bagged for dispatch, to Eastern Europe. Asked the Charity, and I am sure they had the same director, also, I remember reading that they were taken to court re. their trading and fined
16/11/11 @ 17:10
Comment from: petpro [Visitor]
Just contacted the CDC Licenceng Officer and they have no Licence to collect in the CDC area, ( Cherwell District Area)Oxfordshire
16/11/11 @ 17:14
Comment from: Graham [Visitor]
As these bags have become a complete pest I've put a clear A4 size notice on my door asking people not to leave them. This charity has chosen to ignore this. I did think of ringing them to complain, but noticed it's a premium line, which in itself smells of sharp practise. Plan to pursue this via my local authority (South Oxon).
27/11/11 @ 12:01
Comment from: Sarah Jamieson [Visitor]
maybe people should have a look at these people, they are meant to be the biggest collectors in the UK, look how much they're donating to the NSPCC and other major charities
08/12/11 @ 08:42
Comment from: Sarah Jamieson [Visitor]
I was talking about Clothes Aid in my last comment but when I tried to insert the URL it didn't show.
09/12/11 @ 13:15
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
Hi Folks . I am sorry to have taken so long to reply but I have been off work looking after my mother who was very ill.If i can though I would like to respond to the comments raised by Petpro as follows
1. We have never been reported to the TSO in your or indeed in any area.
2. The charity receive at least £100,000.00 a year, easy to check just call them and ask.
3. Yes we use warehouses that are in a farmyard area (I think the clue is in the address of Gallmans End Farm. We do not hide that all the details are on our website http://www.east-london-textiles.com
4. We do indeed sort and bag the clothes and export to over 50 countries in the world, mainly to Africa and the Indian sub-continent and some go to eastern Europe (the heavyweight items that would be unsuitable elsewhere). Unless I am very much mistaken that is perfectly legal and above board. Nor do we say anything different when asked again this is stated on our website.
5. Both of the director’s of the E.L.T. are NOT directors of the charity. This is easy to check simply look at the Charity Commissions web site and you can see the charities director’s names and then Companies House and you will see the names of our directors. It is possible you have confused us with another company and charity where this has recently been brought to light. As I believe that the connection has been severed now I will not be posting any names as there is nothing to be gained from doing so.
6. We have never been taken to court by anyone for any offences at all. In fact when we apply for licenses in a large number of cases we will be required to submit CRB checks to prove that we have not been to court.
7, With regards to the CDC area we are licensed to collect currently from 15/11/11 to 22/11/11 and previously we had licenses from 15/3/11-22/3/11, 15/7/11-22/7/11 and 15/10/11-22/10/11. What you will find is that the license will be held by different councils under different names ie, some use the charities name, some the collecting companies name and some use the name of the person who filled out the application. I have just got off the phone to CDC and the license is stored under the charities name (Little Treasures Childrens Trust)
I note you say you have seen us packing and exporting the clothing, unless you physically came to the site, I doubt you would have done that from Cherwell, the only way you could have seen what was happening is to go to our web site. So we hide that very well don't we! As an aside the director has told me that anyone who wants to can ring the warehouse and they will arrange for them to visit. They will show them round and explain everything that happens and answer any questions they may have.
I really do think people who post to this site should stick to the truth and not post with "not sure", "I believe", "I remember", ”I heard” etc. I think you have a responsibility to ensure everything you post is true, as you can do damage to the companies and charities involved, with very little way (apart from me posting corrections to which people will say "it must be true, there's no smoke without fire") of undoing the harm caused.
Differences of opinion ie the chat about "Tacit Consent" I believe are acceptable, but actually stating something in a way that implies it is the truth, when in fact you are not fully aware of the truth, and are hiding behind the anonymity the internet provides is I believe unacceptable.
15/02/12 @ 11:28
Hi Arthur,First off, welcome back. Sorry to hear about your Mum's ill health.
I welcome all comments here, I posted about little treasures, not ELT, it was little treasures who claimed ELT were collecting, which turned out to be false, as they later admitted.
My back was up because I was clearly mislead by little treasures, which even today they have not rectified. I'm assuming that others who have read my experiences here are of a similar ilk?
That said, on the whole, most comments left on these boards are well intentioned and posted in good faith.
One thing this website will never do, is store or require active email addresses before a comment can be left. It will also never require people to "register" as members.
Too many so called help websites are about gathering data about their users, whilst giving the perception of offering a service to them, this one does not.
If you (or anyone else) have a complaint, then by all means message me or leave a comment and I will happily look at it.
Or as you have done here, use your right to reply on the post/comment concerned.
15/02/12 @ 15:48
Comment from: Arthur jackson [Visitor]
Hi Value HunterI agree and I accept that posters should not have to give an email address to put on the site, but that anonymity I think places a responsibility on the poster to ensure he is as accurate as possible. As I said I accept there will be areas where differences of opinion are held and it can only be good these are openly discussed. On some differences people will never agree, that is just human nature. But if you are posting something and stating it is an immutable fact please be aware of the impact it can have if it is not true.
Thats all I ask.
Take care.
23/02/12 @ 13:46
Comment from: AL [Visitor]
Value HunterYou really need to get a life, I agree with Ade - a cranky, cantankerous, sarcastic, grumpy git.
It is as easy as simply binning the collection bag and not bothering with it and if you have clothes etc to get rid of simply take them down to a charity shop such as Oxfom, Barnados, RSPCA and suck like.
Just inform the charity in case so they can stop using the likes of ELT and suggest they no longer use them where they can put something up on their website or use a PR exercise to both inform and educate the public about this misuse of their good name and reputation.
If door to door clothing collections, direct mail etc gets your goat then do something constructive about it rather than slagging off and singulating ONE SPECIFIC charity - Many companies and charities do it both legitimate and otherwise.
Defamation of a charity, as you have done here, is outrageous get hold of the Direct Marketing Association about it and get a petition going through 10 Downing street - with enough sign ups it will discussed through parliament and you never know may even become legislation.
If you need something to full your time up try dedicating some of your time for something usefull .....like giving your time to a better cause, such as a local hospice, a charity or playing in the traffic.
16/03/12 @ 13:13
Comment from: AL [Visitor]
POSTED ON THIRD SECTOR WEBSITEThe Charity Commission gave the Little Treasures Children's Trust guidance after receiving complaints about clothing collections carried out on behalf of the charity by East London Textiles
A small children’s charity amended its contract with a commercial clothing collection company and changed the wording on collection bags after Charity Commission intervention, Third Sector has learned.
In January this year, the commission opened a regulatory compliance case into the Little Treasures Children’s Trust, which supports families who have children with disabilities or life-limiting conditions.
The regulator said it had received a "significant number of complaints" about the charity, which had an income of £153,000 in the year to the end of January 2010, according to accounts filed with the commission.
The commission said the complaints related to clothing collections being carried out on behalf of the charity by the collections company East London Textiles.
"Although we do not have jurisdiction over clothing companies, we will become involved where a charity’s relationship with a clothing company is damaging to its reputation or to that of the sector as a whole," said a statement from the commission.
The commission closed the case in May after giving the charity guidance on its arrangement with ELT and recommending that the charity receive independent legal advice. It said trustees had since done so.
(Name witheld by me), , manager at Little Treasures Children’s Trust, said the charity had renegotiated its contract with ELT to receive more money from it and to make it clear on the collection bags that the company would give the charity at least £100,000 a year from the collections.
She said wording on the collection bags had also been changed to make it clearer to the public that a commercial collector was carrying out the service for a charity.
"People thought it was us doing the collections, not the company," she said. "And the collection vans only had our logo on them. That’s also changed."
(Name witheld by me), director of ELT, said that all the issues had been resolved and it had complied with the commission’s requests.
http://www.thirdsector.co.uk/news/1098165/
16/03/12 @ 13:58
Hi AlTa for posting the information on the third sector website, I'm sure others will also find it helpful.
Now to answer your other comment;
"It is as easy as simply binning the collection bag and not bothering with it"
- The majority of people think like this, I disagree.
If what happened here costs a licensed charity collection 10 bags of clothing to help in their fundraising, is repeated in all council areas of the country, then that's a hell of a lot of funding they are going to be missing out on.
If everyone doesn't bother about it, how many other unlicensed collections will there be?
Charity commission only seeks answers after thousands of complaints are registered for the same issue with the same charity, so who is monitoring the sector? Nobody!
"Just inform the charity in case so they can stop using the likes of ELT and suggest they no longer use them where they can put something up on their website or use a PR exercise to both inform and educate the public about this misuse of their good name and reputation"
- I did exactly that!
The charity office blamed ELT collecting on their behalf, even told me they were due in a meeting with them later that day where this issue would be addressed.
The charity didn't return my call as promised.
I contacted them the day after, when one of their own vans came down our street collecting bags - exactly the opposite of what the charity told me wouldn't happen and be stopped - I gave them the registration of the van, to which the charity admitted it was not ELT's collection but the charity's own van doing it!
"If door to door clothing collections, direct mail etc gets your goat then do something constructive about it rather than slagging off and singulating ONE SPECIFIC charity"
- As I've already posted - I did something I would regard as constructive.
I put pressure on the charity to stop the collection, I was lied to.
Then later threatened with legal action by a solicitor, acting for the charity, who attempted to obtain information from the website company hosting this site, and made attempts to have this website taken down whilst investigating their complaint.
I discussed the claims made by the solicitor, offering to remove the post and/or edit it, if substantiated. They made false claims as to the post's content which, when I asked them for clarification of where their claims were contained within the post, they had no reply and terminated the call.
I put pressure on the charity commission to act, they told me that without 3000 complaints it was doubtful they would act, but it would be registered and kept on file.
I followed this up with them a couple of months later to be told "you can't expect us to investigate every complaint" - useless.
I pressured my local council's licensing officer several times and got him involved, he agreed with my views completely.
He came out on the day of the collection and made attempts to catch the van in the act of collecting without a license.
I followed this up with further calls to his office regarding other clothing collections and if they had a license to do so, as in 2011 we had over 30 clothing collections of which just 8 had a license to collect.
So far in 2012, we have had just 1 single collection for the nspcc.
I made representations with 2 of our 4 ward councillors and our local police, which caught the van collecting and issued a warning.
I'm not saying my actions made this all happen, but it may have contributed in some small way?
"Defamation of a charity, as you have done here, is outrageous"
- How is it defamation if it is a factual account of my experiences with the charity?
"get a petition going through 10 Downing street - with enough sign ups it will discussed through parliament and you never know may even become legislation."
- I thought the same, unfortunately this won't happen. The hampton principles in regulation (which covers enforcement bodies such as the charity commission) is based on an advisory roles not enforcement.
Any regulator/enforcement body has also to consider the effect any action to be taken would have on the company/charity concerned, if its detrimental in cost to them, it cannot be enforced.
"If you need something to fill your time up try dedicating some of your time for something useful, like giving your time to a better cause, such as a local hospice, a charity"
- What about the small part I've played in helping protect the income for charities that operate within the law and obtain licenses?
Age UK, air ambulance, nspcc, pet charities, all have lost out to unlicensed (read: illegal) collections in our area in 2011. Not to mention the charity shops in our town having fewer clothing donations.
What about the funding they need? Is it petty to bother about that?
"or playing in the traffic"
- cheap shot that.
You have your views, I have mine, that's the way it is.
Thanks again for your input.
17/03/12 @ 04:33
| « 6 weeks school holiday dad - day seven | 6 weeks school holidays dad - day 2 » |
